OOC Discussion and Table Talk II

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ravenn4544
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Re: OOC Discussion and Table Talk II

#101 Post by ravenn4544 »

..but the faith is strong in this one :)

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Inferno
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Re: OOC Discussion and Table Talk II

#102 Post by Inferno »

Hi Zhym,

I think that falling between 10 and 19 feet results in 1d6 damage, as per PHB? :)

Also, I forget how high the ceilings are: Can Khogeki fly through the hole in the wall of fire and land 10 feet south of the giant frog statue, without ever coming within 10 feet of the real frog monster or the statue frog? Thanks.
DM:
The Horror at Briarsgate (1e): Lovecraftian Gothic Horror (N1, homebrew)
Lost City of Eternity (1e): Hyborian Age Sword and Sorcery (B4, JG102, homebrew)
Once and Future Earth (1e): Post-Apocalyptic Sci-Fi Dungeon Crawl (X1, B1, ASE1, homebrew)
Sauron Victorious (1e): Dire Saga for the Fate of Middle Earth (homebrew)

Player:
Agax Gryyg: Gamer of Urth, Ravenloft
Azoth Al-Aziz: Lovecraftian Cultist, Tamoachan
Blodget: Foolish Young 9th Level Hobbit, Dark Clouds
Dredd Doomsmith: Dwarven Deathtrap Engineer, Tomb of Horrors
Elijah Crowthorne: Marooned Prophet, Pirates
Jack in the Green: Ancient Child, Giants
P.T. Codswallop: Larcenous Impresario, Dimwater
Sir Ugghra: Bestial Half-Orc Aristocrat, Brotherton
Swilbosh: Savage Lizard-Warrior, Keep
Tantos Vek: Failed Paladin, Under Streets
Ulfang Chainbreaker: Barbarian Liberator of Slaves, Tharizdun

DM bio is here.

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Urson
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Re: OOC Discussion and Table Talk II

#103 Post by Urson »

Tanner, demonstrating the quick and dirty method of testing for illusionary flames.
Expect Nothing, Appreciate Everything.

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Zhym
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Re: OOC Discussion and Table Talk II

#104 Post by Zhym »

Inferno wrote:Hi Zhym,

I think that falling between 10 and 19 feet results in 1d6 damage, as per PHB? :)
I'm using a slightly simpler method: 1d6 per 10', with fractions of that for fractions of 10'. That way, one foot doesn't make a full 1d6 of difference.
Inferno wrote:Also, I forget how high the ceilings are: Can Khogeki fly through the hole in the wall of fire and land 10 feet south of the giant frog statue, without ever coming within 10 feet of the real frog monster or the statue frog? Thanks.
The ceiling was 30' above the water and the ledge. So there's room to safely fly over the frog monster without coming within 10'.

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AleBelly
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Re: OOC Discussion and Table Talk II

#105 Post by AleBelly »

Scott308 wrote:Risdac Egargi

Now that there is an opening in the wall of fire, the giant mage steps forward ten feet before sending nine orange bolts of pure energy streaking towards the frog creature.
Now that is one hell of a series of rolls!

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Inferno
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Re: OOC Discussion and Table Talk II

#106 Post by Inferno »

Dang!
DM:
The Horror at Briarsgate (1e): Lovecraftian Gothic Horror (N1, homebrew)
Lost City of Eternity (1e): Hyborian Age Sword and Sorcery (B4, JG102, homebrew)
Once and Future Earth (1e): Post-Apocalyptic Sci-Fi Dungeon Crawl (X1, B1, ASE1, homebrew)
Sauron Victorious (1e): Dire Saga for the Fate of Middle Earth (homebrew)

Player:
Agax Gryyg: Gamer of Urth, Ravenloft
Azoth Al-Aziz: Lovecraftian Cultist, Tamoachan
Blodget: Foolish Young 9th Level Hobbit, Dark Clouds
Dredd Doomsmith: Dwarven Deathtrap Engineer, Tomb of Horrors
Elijah Crowthorne: Marooned Prophet, Pirates
Jack in the Green: Ancient Child, Giants
P.T. Codswallop: Larcenous Impresario, Dimwater
Sir Ugghra: Bestial Half-Orc Aristocrat, Brotherton
Swilbosh: Savage Lizard-Warrior, Keep
Tantos Vek: Failed Paladin, Under Streets
Ulfang Chainbreaker: Barbarian Liberator of Slaves, Tharizdun

DM bio is here.

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Zhym
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Re: OOC Discussion and Table Talk II

#107 Post by Zhym »

Okay, I'm confused. How is Khogeki able to strike with a sword from 10' away?

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Inferno
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Re: OOC Discussion and Table Talk II

#108 Post by Inferno »

Melee range is 1". DMG p. 66.

I only brought it up because of the radius of frog demon's stench.
DM:
The Horror at Briarsgate (1e): Lovecraftian Gothic Horror (N1, homebrew)
Lost City of Eternity (1e): Hyborian Age Sword and Sorcery (B4, JG102, homebrew)
Once and Future Earth (1e): Post-Apocalyptic Sci-Fi Dungeon Crawl (X1, B1, ASE1, homebrew)
Sauron Victorious (1e): Dire Saga for the Fate of Middle Earth (homebrew)

Player:
Agax Gryyg: Gamer of Urth, Ravenloft
Azoth Al-Aziz: Lovecraftian Cultist, Tamoachan
Blodget: Foolish Young 9th Level Hobbit, Dark Clouds
Dredd Doomsmith: Dwarven Deathtrap Engineer, Tomb of Horrors
Elijah Crowthorne: Marooned Prophet, Pirates
Jack in the Green: Ancient Child, Giants
P.T. Codswallop: Larcenous Impresario, Dimwater
Sir Ugghra: Bestial Half-Orc Aristocrat, Brotherton
Swilbosh: Savage Lizard-Warrior, Keep
Tantos Vek: Failed Paladin, Under Streets
Ulfang Chainbreaker: Barbarian Liberator of Slaves, Tharizdun

DM bio is here.

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Zhym
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Re: OOC Discussion and Table Talk II

#109 Post by Zhym »

I don't see anything on that page that says that melee can happen at 10' away.

Melee is hand-to-hand combat. By definition, you need to be close enough to your opponent to strike with your weapon. I see no way to hit an opponent that's 10' away when you're wielding a 3'-long weapon.

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Inferno
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Re: OOC Discussion and Table Talk II

#110 Post by Inferno »

Hi. At risk of debating rules with a lawyer, I humbly submit the following into evidence, from DMG p. 66:
Close To Striking Range:
...This action is typically taken when the opponent is over 1" distant but not a long distance away.
If you must close to striking range when over 1" away, it means you are close enough to strike when 1" away or less.
Charge:
...The opponent must be within 10' distance at the termination of the charge in order for any blows to be struck during that round.
Once again, ten feet is called out as the distance for a melee strike.

I suspect that it represents all the jumping around that occurs as a byproduct of one minute of swordplay. When I DM, I require the ten feet to be empty of other combatants.
DM:
The Horror at Briarsgate (1e): Lovecraftian Gothic Horror (N1, homebrew)
Lost City of Eternity (1e): Hyborian Age Sword and Sorcery (B4, JG102, homebrew)
Once and Future Earth (1e): Post-Apocalyptic Sci-Fi Dungeon Crawl (X1, B1, ASE1, homebrew)
Sauron Victorious (1e): Dire Saga for the Fate of Middle Earth (homebrew)

Player:
Agax Gryyg: Gamer of Urth, Ravenloft
Azoth Al-Aziz: Lovecraftian Cultist, Tamoachan
Blodget: Foolish Young 9th Level Hobbit, Dark Clouds
Dredd Doomsmith: Dwarven Deathtrap Engineer, Tomb of Horrors
Elijah Crowthorne: Marooned Prophet, Pirates
Jack in the Green: Ancient Child, Giants
P.T. Codswallop: Larcenous Impresario, Dimwater
Sir Ugghra: Bestial Half-Orc Aristocrat, Brotherton
Swilbosh: Savage Lizard-Warrior, Keep
Tantos Vek: Failed Paladin, Under Streets
Ulfang Chainbreaker: Barbarian Liberator of Slaves, Tharizdun

DM bio is here.

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Zhym
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Re: OOC Discussion and Table Talk II

#111 Post by Zhym »

You seem to be trying to use rules that preclude melee from over 10' away to argue that you can strike a blow without coming closer than 10'. I think that's a logical fallacy.

The rules you quote are about approaching to within striking distance, not about what striking distance is. BtB, if you're over 10' from your target, you need to use an action to get into melee range. You can do it by charging (if you haven't already charged in 10 rounds) or by closing to melee, but that's your action that round (charging includes an attack, of course). But if you are already within 10' of your target, you can engage in hand-to-hand combat without spending a full round closing the rest of the distance. That doesn't mean that 10' is melee distance. It just means that if you're within 10', you can move into striking range without that being your only action for the round.

(Note that if we were playing BtB, the Unseen Servant wouldn't get an attack this round because he started it more than 10' from his target and he isn't charging.)

Your interpretation would imply that someone could strike with his fists or a 15" dagger without ever coming within 10' of his opponent! That would be absurd, so any rule interpretation that supports that result is clearly incorrect. (Well, it should be. We are talking about a Gygax game. Still, we can presume that Gary didn't intend an absurd result.)

And, really, that's the point of the stench aura. It's a special attack & defense: anyone in melee range has to save against the smell.

In short: melee is hand-to-hand, and hand-to-hand is up close and personal. You can't do it from 10' away.

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Re: OOC Discussion and Table Talk II

#112 Post by Inferno »

Zhym wrote:You're talking about rules about approaching to within striking distance, not about what striking distance is.
Actually, it reveals both. The two passages show that you must approach within 10 feet to strike. This means striking range is 10 feet in this game. :)

Again, it's likely to represent all the motion that occurs in a minute of HTH combat. From the PHB: "The 1 minute melee round assumes much activity - rushes, retreats, feints, parries, checks, and so on."

That said, you can house rule whatever you like in your game of course.

To be clear: I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly) the statue doesn't have the stench power of its twin. All this positioning is only to keep maximum distance from the real frog demon. If the frog statue DOES has the stench power, it should affect Khogeki as he momentarily closes to attack it, of course.
(Fyi, the 10 foot berth he gave the statue as he approached it wasn't to avoid its stench power (again, I'm assuming it doesn't have one), it was to avoid an Opportunity Attack as Khogeki flew past.)


So, your original question was, how can Khogeki land 10 feet south of an opponent he is striking? The answer is: with one minute melee rounds, ten feet is within striking distance. :)
DM:
The Horror at Briarsgate (1e): Lovecraftian Gothic Horror (N1, homebrew)
Lost City of Eternity (1e): Hyborian Age Sword and Sorcery (B4, JG102, homebrew)
Once and Future Earth (1e): Post-Apocalyptic Sci-Fi Dungeon Crawl (X1, B1, ASE1, homebrew)
Sauron Victorious (1e): Dire Saga for the Fate of Middle Earth (homebrew)

Player:
Agax Gryyg: Gamer of Urth, Ravenloft
Azoth Al-Aziz: Lovecraftian Cultist, Tamoachan
Blodget: Foolish Young 9th Level Hobbit, Dark Clouds
Dredd Doomsmith: Dwarven Deathtrap Engineer, Tomb of Horrors
Elijah Crowthorne: Marooned Prophet, Pirates
Jack in the Green: Ancient Child, Giants
P.T. Codswallop: Larcenous Impresario, Dimwater
Sir Ugghra: Bestial Half-Orc Aristocrat, Brotherton
Swilbosh: Savage Lizard-Warrior, Keep
Tantos Vek: Failed Paladin, Under Streets
Ulfang Chainbreaker: Barbarian Liberator of Slaves, Tharizdun

DM bio is here.

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Zhym
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Re: OOC Discussion and Table Talk II

#113 Post by Zhym »

Inferno wrote:Actually, it reveals both. The two passages show that you must approach within 10 feet to strike. This means striking range is 10 feet in this game, crazy as it might seem.
No, that's the fallacy:

A: If you are not within 10 feet, you cannot strike.
B: If you are within 10 feet, you can strike.

A does not imply B. In terms of formal logic "if not X then not Y" does not necessarily imply "if X then Y." To illustrate, here are a pair of similar claims:

A': If you are not within 100 miles of a person, you cannot shake his hand.
B': If you are within 100 miles of a person, you can shake his hand.

Although A' is true, B' should be self-evidently absurd.

The rules on p. 66 say that you have to get to within 10' of a target to engage in melee. For game purposes, once you're within 10', you're essentially in melee if you aren't also trying to stay a minimum distance away. But it should be obvious that you can't hit a person without getting next to him at some point. Those "rushes, retreats, feints, parries, checks, and so on" are going to bring a character closer than 10' away.

If you want to have Inferno land 10' away from the statue on the opposite side from the toadman monster, that's fine. But if you also want to stay out of range of the real toad demon's stench, you'll have to get the statue to come to you.

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Re: OOC Discussion and Table Talk II

#114 Post by Inferno »

Zhym wrote:A: If you are not within 10 feet, you cannot strike.
B: If you are within 10 feet, you can strike.

A does not imply B.
In the context of the rules discussion in the DMG, I would say it certainly does. :)

Your straw man example, while funny, lacks that context, so isn't an apt comparison.
As you indicated, seeking logic in Gygax rules is a fool's errand. We can strive merely to discern the founding father's intent. :)
The rules on p. 66 say that you have to get to within 10' of a target to engage in melee.
Exactly!
Those "rushes, retreats, feints, parries, checks, and so on" are going to bring a character closer than 10' away.
Correct, as I said in my last post.
It's clear to me that a character can stand in a position and strike a target up to ten feet away over the course of a one minute melee round, assuming that path is clear. During that attack, he would momentarily close within the length of his arm + the length of his sword, at least, but return to his original position at the end of his action.

But like I said, as DM it's your right to house rule as you wish. :) Your preference is clear.
If you want to have Inferno land 10' away from the statue on the opposite side from the toadman monster, that's fine. But if you also want to stay out of range of the real toad demon's stench, you'll have to get the statue to come to you.
Thanks. The map you sent on 2/4 appears to show that if Khogeki lands east of the statue (S), right next to the statue, he's outside the real frog demon's AOE, for now anyway.
Either way, he'll do that. I'll modify my post. Thanks.
DM:
The Horror at Briarsgate (1e): Lovecraftian Gothic Horror (N1, homebrew)
Lost City of Eternity (1e): Hyborian Age Sword and Sorcery (B4, JG102, homebrew)
Once and Future Earth (1e): Post-Apocalyptic Sci-Fi Dungeon Crawl (X1, B1, ASE1, homebrew)
Sauron Victorious (1e): Dire Saga for the Fate of Middle Earth (homebrew)

Player:
Agax Gryyg: Gamer of Urth, Ravenloft
Azoth Al-Aziz: Lovecraftian Cultist, Tamoachan
Blodget: Foolish Young 9th Level Hobbit, Dark Clouds
Dredd Doomsmith: Dwarven Deathtrap Engineer, Tomb of Horrors
Elijah Crowthorne: Marooned Prophet, Pirates
Jack in the Green: Ancient Child, Giants
P.T. Codswallop: Larcenous Impresario, Dimwater
Sir Ugghra: Bestial Half-Orc Aristocrat, Brotherton
Swilbosh: Savage Lizard-Warrior, Keep
Tantos Vek: Failed Paladin, Under Streets
Ulfang Chainbreaker: Barbarian Liberator of Slaves, Tharizdun

DM bio is here.

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AleBelly
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Re: OOC Discussion and Table Talk II

#115 Post by AleBelly »

Zhym wrote:Combat Round 11

Tanner continues looking for a way to destroy the tendrils that are growing out of his skin. Desperate, he steps into the purple flame. The pain is excruciating. His flesh blackens, melts, and withers in the flames (-16 HP). The tendrils burn and fall off—but no ones sprout to take their place, even in the flames (-2 HP).
Is this supposed to read "new ones take their place..."?

Also, Hallagad also has a ring of regeneration. :)

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Re: OOC Discussion and Table Talk II

#116 Post by ravenn4544 »

So what do you guys think? I'm thinking maybe we come down off the ledge and huddle up. Malibran has healing left but then he'll be tapped out. Do we try and rest here after we heal up to recover spells? If this battle is any indication of what's to come we may need to be full strength whenever we can - if we can.

If those that are able can lower down those that are unconscious i can heal them up to full.


Zhym - can you remind me of what enemy corpses are left?

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Re: OOC Discussion and Table Talk II

#117 Post by Rex »

Xale is almost a corpse.

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Zhym
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Re: OOC Discussion and Table Talk II

#118 Post by Zhym »

AleBelly wrote:Is this supposed to read "new ones take their place..."?

Also, Hallagad also has a ring of regeneration. :)
Yes, that was supposed to be "new ones." I've edited to correct that and add Malibran's regenerated HP.

There's a dead snake monster, a dead vulture man on top of the high ledge foreward, and a dead toadman in the middle of the large room.

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Re: OOC Discussion and Table Talk II

#119 Post by ravenn4544 »

Thanks Zhym.

All - Which of these dead guys do you think may be the strongest or a leader? Malibran could cast speak with dead and ask a few questions (he does have demonic as a language so that helps) about what's ahead. couldn't hurt i guess.

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Re: OOC Discussion and Table Talk II

#120 Post by Zhym »

Using Speak with Dead on an infernal corpse raises some metaphysical questions. Usually, the spell assumes that the deceased has some sort of afterlife from which it can talk to the caster. If a devil dies in Hell, is there anything left to talk to? If so, where is it? Back in Hell? How is that different from being a "live" demon in Hell?

I'll let the spell work if you choose to use it, but it's one of those spells that get more interesting when cast in the lower planes.

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