OOC Table Talk

[Bloodaxe]

The plan is basically this:
• take the ogre head, if unguarded
• charm our goblin hostage
• give him the head and a handwritten note (in goblin) saying GOBLINS WEAK — STRIKE NOW and instructions to deliver both to the hobgoblins 30 minutes after we leave
• we split for safety
• come back in a few days and harvest ears

If getting the ogre head is too dicey, amend the note to say OGRE DEAD-GOBLINS WEAK-STRIKE NOW.

There's very little risk in this. It's worth a shot.

One minor snag...you lost your hostage. Nobody brought him with you when you fled through the secret door.

I didnt prepare Charm person today seeing that the hostage wasnt with us.

[Gelatinous Q]

Buzzkill.

In that case, we could:
• attempt to subdue/charm another goblin (risky, given our health)
• one of us delivers the head/note ourselves w/ the help of the invisibility potion (now in Lardo's possession). Basically, knock and run. I'd volunteer to do it myself if I had more than 1HP, though I think Henry would kill me if I survived.

Both involve more risk than the original plan, but the payoff could be considerable.

Regardless of what we decide, Lardo's going to give a listen at the secret door for any sign of goblin activity on the other side.

[Bloodaxe]

Lets do something. Either send a message or go back. An attack on us now will result in a few dead comrades.

I dont think we need to go to the trouble of charming another Goblin if we want to deliver the message. Just toss the Ogre head on the front door. Any volunteers? A sip of Invisibility potion lasts a few turns, should be enough to get there and back.

The Goblins obviously know he is dead, how long before they come to see what treasure he had? I dont think we should stay here too long.

The remaining goblin forces look manageable if we can catch them unprepared. The Chief, wolf, a few bodyguards and a few regular Goblins.

[GreyWolfVT]

how about the one with the idea gets to be invisible and deliver the head and message?

[KingOfCowards]

Throwing an ogre head seems like a waste. Even if it causes a fight, we plan on leaving so we won't see the aftermath. Using the invisibility potion on top of throwing the ogre head is even more of a waste. If the group wants to work on this plan of action, better to wait until we are in good enough shape to follow up and claim the spoils for ourselves.

[Bloodaxe]

I'm for going somewhere and resting to full health. Put the loot somewhere safe.

[badams30]

I also vote to go and recuperate, it wouldn't take much to finish us off if we got into something bad.

[Spartakos]

The group examines their spoils, and gets an accurate count of the various coins they have plundered. Unfortunately, they find that one of the sacks of 'gold' they found in the ogre's bag is actually filled with lead coins, each coated with a thin layer of gold leaf (actual value 1 cp each).

XP earned:

Monsters:

Kobold chief negotiated with (half of 36 = 18)
13 goblins killed (104)
1 goblin captured (half of 8 = 4)
2 goblins put to flight (half of 16 = 8)
Ogre killed (240)

Total = 374 XP

Treasure:

489 gp
91 ep (45.5 gpv)
347 sp (34.7 gpv)
240 counterfeit gold pieces (2.4 gpv)
Gold-inlaid battleaxe (75 gpv)
Keg of brandy (80 gpv)
Scroll - Cure Light Wounds, Hold Person (150 xp)
Potion - Invisibility (300 xp)

Total value = 1177 xp

Total XP = 1551, split 8 ways = 194 XP each.
Please update your sheets accordingly. GreyWolf, Cormac already had XP from previously. Bloodaxe, I gave everybody 15% of what they needed for 2nd as a little "bonus"; so you start with 450 XP, and add the 137 to that.

3 Things:

1.) Actual money in your pockets depends on what you do with the magic items, the brandy, the axe, and the counterfeit coins. Discuss IC.

2.) I haven't heard from ragnbones in forever; Geert has been an NPC for practically that whole expedition. Do you want him to continue coming with you as an NPC? Or would you rather he go his own way?

2.) What are you doing with your intrepid hireling youths? Keep in mind, your treatment of them will have an impact on whether they want to go out with you again, whether ANYONE wants to go out with you again, and how you will be treated in the Keep (by townsfolk in general, and their parents in particular).

[Zhym]

This conversation has come up in other games on these forums, but the standard monster + gold XP awards seem to result in glacial level progress in PbP. Any thoughts on that? The first expedition was 220 XP, this one was 137 XP. In over 9 months of play we've managed 357 XP. With the 15% XP bonus you gave us, a thief should hit level 2 around January 2019. Ampersand may get there around October 2020.

If that's the pace you're going for, no worries, but I wonder how long the PCs are expected to stay at first level in this module.

[Spartakos]

This conversation has come up in other games on these forums, but the standard monster + gold XP awards seem to result in glacial level progress in PbP. Any thoughts on that? The first expedition was 220 XP, this one was 137 XP. In over 9 months of play we've managed 357 XP. With the 15% XP bonus you gave us, a thief should hit level 2 around January 2019. Ampersand may get there around October 2020.

If that's the pace you're going for, no worries, but I wonder how long the PCs are expected to stay at first level in this module.

I will admit, this is the first time I've done advancement in this fashion (I typically award various XP bonuses), and the amounts do seem low. Let me do some analysis. It is certainly not my intent that you guys remain 1st level forever.

I'd be happy to see others' input on this subject as well.

[GreyWolfVT]

so regarding Cormac he had 520 xp should he be at 587 if I take what you told Bloodaxe and apply the difference in xp that was missing on Cormac? i.e. 450 + 137 = 587 so i just made Cormac the same amount of xp rather than add 137 to his already 520 xp.

As for what Zhym mentioned yes the xp does seam awfully low but I was only in the caves of chaos module once before and the xp there felt low as well. So it might just be how the module runs it rather than what the xp really should be?

[KingOfCowards]

So Keep on the Borderlands was made for levels 1-3. It's nice to have a few 2nd level adventurers in there, but I think it is also meant to raise you up to 2nd or from 2nd to 3rd. From my memory (which is really being tested right now), a group of 1st's didn't hit second until we took out the cult. I would guess that this would be similar. I would attribute the slow going to some bad luck in the battles up to this point. We've had two deaths, and three near-deaths in two expeditions, that were both cut short.

Our luck will change, just need to stick with it.

[badams30]

As for the question about the hirelings: Up and above what we agreed to pay them (two are still surviving, right?) If that's the case, Henry will offer to split his share three ways with them if they agree to join us again.

[GreyWolfVT]

regarding Geert we likely could use the help then again kinda silly to have to force a PC to become an NPC from here on out putting that action on the DM to decide what Geert does at all times. I'd say lets keep the hirelings if they will sign on again. Otherwise might have to look for another player to take up the open spot?

[Bloodaxe]

With the undead going to come from the Cult we need a Cleric. Having extra healing spells will also keep us in the caves area longer too.

At this rate I'll never even make Level 2. I need 2500 more XP, at 150xp per expedition- 16 more expeditions.
I should have been a Cleric or Thief!

[Gelatinous Q]

We've had our hands full with goblins and orcs. Undead and clerics capable of creating them are well past our capabilities at the moment.

Geert's been useful but if we're going to carry an NPC it should probably be an additional cleric so we're not constantly retreating to the Keep to recuperate, as bloodaxe points out. (No offense, Henry.) I vote for keeping the hirelings too.

The XPs so far are what they are. Leveling is slow going in PBP.

[Bloodaxe]

Should I IC giving the Ogre head at The Keep ?/ Or?

Id say scroll for the Cleric
Potion for the Thief.
Since they get the greatest use. Cleric is obvious. Thief can scout and backstab, 8 sips. Great use for a Thief.

Sell the rest. Brandy, axe.

[badams30]

As for an additional healer, perhaps Henry could visit the church/chapel or whatnot and make a donation - AND inquire about perhaps securing another healer? If we couldn't find one at the inn.

[Spartakos]

So I took a look, and Zhym has a valid point; your returns on time invested (both game and real life) appears pretty abysmal, under the current rules.

Part of that is how play has gone. Trying to avoid spoilers, I will say neither of your expeditions netted as much as I expected you to; it is possible for you guys to achieve greater rewards for similar effort. In LabLord, monster XP is fairly low (I've already increased it), and it's expected that the bulk of your XP will come from treasure. You haven't made any really significant treasure scores just yet, especially considering the tough fights you've gone through. The 2 caves you've basically "cleared" (the orcs and the ogre) are literally the two lowest yield caves in the complex, in terms of XP.

I actually totaled up the XP available if you defeat all the monsters and recover all the treasure of the Caves...it's around 40,000 XP worth. For a party of 8, that's 5000 apiece...around 3rd level for everyone, but only after you've essentially finished the adventure.

However, the bulk of that XP is concentrated in a few (fairly tough) areas; if you avoided those (either by chance, or because they're too risky) you could clear a majority of the caves and not hit 2nd level...that is definitely not my intent. Add in that you're unlikely to garner every scrap of loot and treasure in each cave, and that gameplay over PbP takes considerably longer than face-to-face...yeah, I kinda think a change is needed so you level a bit quicker.

Things I considered include XP awards for magic items found (as in AD&D), increased XP for monsters defeated (perhaps more like 2nd edition AD&D, or going with the even older 100 XP per HD Holmes method), giving bonuses for discoveries and other achievements other than killing/looting (a la keehnelf's Westmarches campaign), and the simple expedient of just doubling the existing XP awards.

I started to do an analysis about using 2E AD&D XP numbers, but soon gave up; it was not producing XP that were all that dissimilar from how I'm presently calculating it (under my hybrid LL/1E AD&D rules).

Using the older Holmes system, however, produced some very interesting (to me) results.

Analysis: Using the 100 per HD method:

Your 1st expedition would have instead garnered (assuming still half XP awards for negotiation/fled enemies):

125 XP for kobolds slept/negotiated with
50 XP for kobold killed
1200 XP for orcs killed
500 XP for orcs chased off
300 XP for chief
100 XP for mate

2275 XP for monsters, around 5x as much as previously, and a bit over twice as much as for treasure recovered.

Your 2nd expedition would have instead garnered:

50 XP for kobold negotiations
975 XP for goblins killed
112 XP for goblins chased off/captured
400 XP for the ogre

1537 XP for monsters...similar ratios as above, 4-5x as much, and about twice as much as for treasure.

Altogether, that would increase your total XP hauls to 3200 XP for the first expedition (divided by 6 survivors, that would be 533 XP each) and 2264 XP for the second (divided by 8, that's 283 XP each). Each of you would stand with around 800 XP earned...that's a little more than double your current earnings, which is close to my suggestion of doubling XP awards, and certainly not ridiculously fast advancement.

My only reservation about the 100/HD system is that it doesn't take into account special abilities (for instance, the poisoned sword that the orc chief's mate used). I think the expectation is that this "comes out in the wash" (some monsters are easier, some tougher, for that same XP award). But I like the more nuanced calculation system; reading Delta's D&D blog (where he talks at length, and with considerable maths, about the different XP systems) I'm considering adopting one of his ideas, which is simply that monsters with special abilities (poison, spells, etc) get a relatively simple bonus to that 100/HD award (he mentioned doubling).

So:

I think that regardless, I'm going to start awarding treasure XP for magic items recovered (using AD&D rules, but also awarding XP for scrolls...50 XP per spell level).

In addition, I would like to do one of the following:

1.) Double existing XP awards. This would allow for quicker leveling, ability to handle greater threats, would preserve the current experience schema (i.e. treasure is the primary experience pool, with combat being a lesser component), and has the advantage of simplicity.

OR

2.) Award XP for monsters based on a formula of 100 XP per HD, with a 50% bonus if the monster possesses notable special abilities, and with a minor bonus if their HP are above average for their HD. This would produce the same (or very similar) outputs with regard to quicker advancement, but has a couple other interesting changes; it would mean the majority of XP would come from defeating monsters, not looting treasure. Further, the biggest gains would be in low-HD monsters (which is the main populace of the Caves); orcs and hobgoblins are worth considerably more per kill under this system, while more powerful monsters (in the 4-6 HD range) would actually be worth fairly similar amounts to what they are now.

Thoughts/feedback?

Incidentally, you can continue to RP in town and settle business while we hash this out; no need to delay the game.

[GreyWolfVT]

I'd go with option 1 as it sounds the least likely to really alter the dynamics of the game and put more of a chance to the system in place.