EVENT: The Trial of Bremen - 19 June 2021

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Marullus
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Re: EVENT: The Trial of Bremen - 19 June 2021

#81 Post by Marullus »

Irving is now in righteous indignation against the slimy insinuations of this devil's wordsmith.

You ask, 'How would you know if a voice was actually a demon claiming to be Baudh?' I answer you:
'We were in a consecrated chapel of Baudh. We were guided by our faithful cleric. We were sent by this very Archbishop with a vision from Baudh of that very chapel.' This is called divine confirmation. What you suggest
is impossible in such a place. Nobody said ever anything of a demon. Why, it would have been our honor to strike such a thing down with our own swords! Should we question all that happens here in this chapel as well? No! I think not, sir! This holy quest happened as Baudh fortold, here, in this very chapel. You cannot twist my words to anything else."

"Markd swore to bring Bremen to justice, I knew not what for, two days prior. I am certain that his accusations have nothing to do with your impuning of us, the Archbishop, and the good, holy, outcome of this quest."


Pendleton appeals to Archbishop Keelan. The Archbishop looks sour. "His answers stand, councilor. Move on.."

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Re: EVENT: The Trial of Bremen - 19 June 2021

#82 Post by Zhym »

"Very well. It was Baudh because you think it was Baudh. How can anyone argue with that—or give it credence?."

"As for your refusal to answer what the voice told you to call it, we can only presume that either your memory of the event is poor or that you know Bandy's testimony is correct and are deliberately avoiding admitting it because it does not fit the story you have in your head of what happened."

"Speaking of Bandy, you were on an expedition with him and Stancell. Do you consider them both to be honest men...er, people?"

I knew having the same person play the witness and the judge would be a bad idea. :P

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Re: EVENT: The Trial of Bremen - 19 June 2021

#83 Post by Marullus »

He doesn't know Bandy's testimony. The witnesses are sequestered.

"I like them both just fine, I suppose." He seems dubious of some trap.

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Re: EVENT: The Trial of Bremen - 19 June 2021

#84 Post by Zhym »

Pendleton is starting to wonder if Irving is incapable of answering a straight question.

"You seem to like most people who aren't asking impertinent questions," answers Pendleton, "but that's not quite what I asked. Do you think they're honest?"

BTW, any judge in the world would require a witness to answer a direct question about what a voice said, even if the answer is "I don't remember." No lawyer or judge would let a witness dodge the question entirely.

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Re: EVENT: The Trial of Bremen - 19 June 2021

#85 Post by Marullus »

He answers uncomfortably. "Well... Bandy tried to steal our horses once, and Markd is cursed by the Gods themselves to ensure that the whole world knows not to trust him, so I suppose both have their issues..."

(He did answer. You pushed him to call it Baudh. He did. He then explained how he knew it was Baudh through divine confirmation. It doesn't occur to him that 'justice' would be a name - it is just Baudh's domain.)

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Re: EVENT: The Trial of Bremen - 19 June 2021

#86 Post by Zhym »

Pendleton doesn't even know where to start where the bit about the gods cursing Markd. In any other court room, he'd immediately object that the witness is speculating about things he has no direct knowledge of and move that the remarks be stricken. And then there's Irving's speculation on the motives of the gods, which seems pretty presumptuous. But then again...

"Which god, exactly, do you believe cursed Stancell?"
Maybe it's just the nature of play by post, but Irving never answered this question:

"[D]id the voice tell you what you should call it?"

The question was not "who do you think the voice was." It was "what did the voice tell you to call it?" The first asks for opinion or belief. The second asks for a recollection of fact. That's a difference that matters.

It doesn't matter whether Irving understands the context of the trial. The point is that no court would allow a witness to completely blow off a question. He gave rambling sort-of-answers to other questions. To the question above, he has said nothing.

Again, "I don't remember" is an answer (often). But a courts isn't going to let a witness get away with "How dare you ask me that question!" as a non-answer.

Pendleton is frustrated (as am I, frankly), because he is trying to get Irving to testify as to facts but instead keeps getting rantings about Irving's opinions and beliefs. For the most part, Irving's opinions and blathering about the importance of the mission are irrelevant and are not why Pendleton brought Irving to the stand. Honestly, at this point, he'd normally asking to treat the witness as hostile because Irving has yet to give a straight answer to any of Pendleton's questions. Even the answer to "what happened" was full of speculation that would have been quickly cut off.

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Re: EVENT: The Trial of Bremen - 19 June 2021

#87 Post by Rusty Tincanne »

Wasn't Bandy's realization that the group was tricked into releasing a demon merely an interpretation, though? It wasn't a fact. The facts would be, the voice said"you can call me Justice," and, "help me release justice on the world." Bandy's testimony went into interpretation.
And then Bandy have Benefits a similar treatment, of not really giving him direct answers.

Quite frankly, we haven't had any reliable witnesses yet! ;) Markd was aloof and noncommittal,
and Bandy and Irving are prone to storytelling. Maybe Florian will be a straight shooter.

Also, don't you remember Irving and Olaf's initial interaction? I think this is very in character for Irving. He's a pious idiot that see himself in a fairytale.

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Re: EVENT: The Trial of Bremen - 19 June 2021

#88 Post by Zhym »

Rusty Tincanne wrote:The facts would be, the voice said"you can call me Justice," and, "help me release justice on the world."
Right! Pendleton is trying to get Irving to say whether he also heard the voice say those things. The court can do its own interpretation. The facts are damning enough (so to speak), if Irving would bother to testify about them. :)

The general rule is that witnesses can testify to their own knowledge, observations, and belief. "The voice said 'call me Justice'" is testimony about the facts. "The voice was Baudh's" is either inadmissible conjecture or a statement of belief that would be admitted only after some foundation to support that belief. "Markd was cursed by the gods as a warning not to trust him" would be blatant conjecture regarding something Irving has no first-hand knowledge about, and would not be allowed.

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Re: EVENT: The Trial of Bremen - 19 June 2021

#89 Post by Marullus »

"[D]id the voice tell you what you should call it?"
"No. It just confirmed it was a servant of Baudh," he repeats crisply.
Repeating again:
It doesn't occur to him that 'justice' would be a name - it is just Baudh's domain.
"Which god, exactly, do you believe cursed Stancell?"
"I wouldn't claim to know, sir, nor would I claim that it matters. The Gods have done so, and the Gods allow it to stand. We are just men."
"Markd was cursed by the gods as a warning not to trust him" would be blatant conjecture regarding something Irving has no first-hand knowledge about, and would not be allowed.
The entire "are these men trustworthy" is suspect,
actually. You can't give a subjective question and then complain about the answer. It is considered accepted public knowledge that a divine mark of repugnance has that effect, imo.
Pendleton is frustrated (as am I, frankly), because he is trying to get Irving to testify as to facts but instead keeps getting rantings about Irving's opinions and beliefs. For the most part, Irving's opinions and blathering about the importance of the mission are irrelevant and are not why Pendleton brought Irving to the stand.
That means I am playing this correctly. Irving lives in a self-contained nursery tale where he is the dashing hero. The ONLY important thing is the dramatic conclusion of the mission as a compelling story. The chapel was the happy climax to a grand tale and nothing happened there of note; he has no idea what this trial is about because nobody ever spoke plainly in the scene and so far you haven't told him otherwise. At this point you have mocked him, the church, and his tale and you might as well start twirling your mustaches and saying 'mu hah ha.' The guy has a charisma 17 and Intelligence 4. He's not the witness for clear cognition.

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Re: EVENT: The Trial of Bremen - 19 June 2021

#90 Post by Zhym »

"But you did claim to know, just now. 'Markd is cursed by the Gods themselves to ensure that the whole world knows not to trust him.' Are those not your words, sir? Are we to believe that you know the motivations of the gods?"
Irving has shown himself a hostile witness, whose testimony, if given credence, weakens Pendleton's case. Of course he's going to try to impeach the testimony. What's unrealistic and frustrating is that a judge would let that sort of thing go on.

As far as I'm aware, Pendleton hasn't said anything about the church. He has, however, insinuated that Irving couldn't tell the difference between the voice of his god and that of a demon. Which, hey, is sort of relevant to his testimony, if that sort of thing actually mattered.

Marullus wrote:The entire "are these men trustworthy" is suspect,actually.
Not at all. Bremen impugned the credibility of Markd and Bandy, so Pendleton is trying to elicit testimony that they wouldn't lie. Standard stuff. But even when testifying to a person's honest character, opinions about things you have no reason to know is still not admissible.

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Re: EVENT: The Trial of Bremen - 19 June 2021

#91 Post by Rusty Tincanne »

You make my head hurt! :lol: how do you know so much about being in court?
Glad Bremen it merely a soldier and I can just play him that way.

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Re: EVENT: The Trial of Bremen - 19 June 2021

#92 Post by Marullus »

Irving now faces the villian squarely, deepening his convictions against the continuing inquiry. "The Gods place a mark to make a man reviled on-sight by all who behold him. Then, you ask if that man should be trusted. If the Gods wish that man to be despised, who could answer another way? That is my answer. I pray for Markd's redemption as my companion, but I will not sit here before Baudh and be tricked into disputing divine will."
I've spent over twenty days testifying in courtrooms, including dozens of hours testifying myself.
I don't wish it on others. ;)

That said, let's keep this fun and moving forward. I don't want you frustrated, Zhym. I would still like everyone to enjoy the roleplay. Otherwise, we can just cut it off and I will narrate a summary of dramatic Revelations. I think you're doing awesome and this is some of the best RP we've had going. I would like to see where it goes organically!

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Re: EVENT: The Trial of Bremen - 19 June 2021

#93 Post by Rusty Tincanne »

Yeah. Let's keep going. Bremen is against any revelations, whether divine or dramatic.
;)

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Re: EVENT: The Trial of Bremen - 19 June 2021

#94 Post by onlyme »

Markd just sits there saddened by the errant testimony.
Dandelion - female half-orc beautyqueen in training (The Lone City in the Wildlands) OSRIC
Halfpint - female halfling badgirl wannabe (Lab Lord- The North Marches) LL
Mark'd - charismatic human fighter (Lab Lord- The North Marches) LL


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Re: EVENT: The Trial of Bremen - 19 June 2021

#95 Post by Zhym »

"I suppose we can take that as a, 'Yes,'" says Pendleton. "If only we could all be as certain of our gods' will as you are."

He sits down and nods to Bremen.

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Re: EVENT: The Trial of Bremen - 19 June 2021

#96 Post by Rusty Tincanne »

Bremen rises again and addresses Irving. Mr. Rosemont, I am sorry for the brusque manners of Markd's representative. At one point, he asked if you felt Bandy Sandybanks was honest, you mentioned that he had tried to take our horses. Can you explain what was happening at that time, please? In particular, I believe the good people would like to know about the first we were facing and what you did about that. He gives Irving a wink.

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Re: EVENT: The Trial of Bremen - 19 June 2021

#97 Post by Marullus »

Irving straightens up, then tells his tale. "Well, we were in our first foray to explore beyond the river and seek the White Tower of Baudh's Sigil. We were atop a catacomb filled with the spirits of the dead and, perched atop the tombs were three mansized gargoyles... which we realized were watching us. You see, not just horrors of stone, they were magical creations with a vicious intelligence. They attacked, laying low Kellstrom, the priest of Baudh from this church, and prepared to carry his limp body off for their feast."

"I split one gargoyle from forehead to navel with my ancestral sword blade; it turns out that only I could harm them.
Seeing their companion fall when they believed themselves impervious, the other monster grabbed up Kellstrom's body and attempted to flee. I could not allow the body of a Priest of Baudh to come to such a fate. I charged the beast and it dropped our cleric and fled before me."


"Bandy disappeared when the gargoyles attacked. While we struggled to save Kellstrom's body, if not his life,
we found that Bandy had escaped to our mounts and was beginning to ride off with them."

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Re: EVENT: The Trial of Bremen - 19 June 2021

#98 Post by Rusty Tincanne »

Bremen marvels at Irving's gallantry as he tells his story, and at the close he makes a melodramatic, shocked face. Wait. So you mean to say that, Bandy Sandybanks, the halfling that Mr. Pendleton was just fawning over moments ago... We'll Bandy not only abandoned his quest-companions while locked in a deadly battle with magical creatures, but he also tried to steal the mounts we would need to carry that holy relic back with - while you were defending or very lives? And we only found out because you had destroyed one beast, then frightened another off before he could totally disappear? It seems the party was fortunate he did not try it again when we were in the White Tower. Perhaps it's because we brought a pair of young men to guard the mounts on our second outing...

But I'm rambling a bit. You described the events from the chapel in wonderful detail. Mr. Sandybanks, who - to me - seems a bit suspect now, was asked a question he never got to answer earlier. After I pointed out that Bandy had no formal knowledge about demons, Mr. Pendleton asked Bandy if he would know a demon if he saw one. That seems a simple question, but I wonder, did you see any demons in the chapel-room? Did you see any creatures aside from Stancell, Bandy, Brother Florian, me and yourself in that holy place?

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Re: EVENT: The Trial of Bremen - 19 June 2021

#99 Post by Marullus »

"No," he says firmly. "I did not. I am confident that, if any of my Companions saw or even suspected such a hideous creature present, we would have slew it."

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Re: EVENT: The Trial of Bremen - 19 June 2021

#100 Post by Rusty Tincanne »

Bremen nods. I agree. But just to satisfy Mr. Pendleton and Bishop Keelan (who, as you have reminded everyone, sent us on our holy mission), do you think I was making an oath to anything demonic when I "swore to restore Baudh's worship at the sacred temple"?

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