OOC Chatter II

[Alethan]

http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/201 ... rness.html

This. This is why I play.

I think this may be one of my favourite Hack & Slash blog posts to-date.

[Marullus]

An interesting read. I'll ask, how are we measuring up here?

As low-level PCs, you have been exploring and "point crawling" but as mid-level, I am expecting more "spreading civilization" behavior. Both Blackjack and Bremen have embraced this and are actively seeking to "secure" hexes that are beyond Gaul with their actions (while Clay Weatherwax has chosen to deliberately not civilize Beith's Watch.) As more folks attract followers, this becomes a requirement - "civilizing hexes" around your fortification is what followers are for, imho.

[Zhym]

As low-level PCs, you have been exploring and "point crawling" but as mid-level, I am expecting more "spreading civilization" behavior. Both Blackjack and Bremen have embraced this and are actively seeking to "secure" hexes that are beyond Gaul with their actions (while Clay Weatherwax has chosen to deliberately not civilize Beith's Watch.) As more folks attract followers, this becomes a requirement - "civilizing hexes" around your fortification is what followers are for, imho.

That's fine as long as it's not mandatory. Most of my PCs are happy to remain murder hobos well into the higher levels.

It's interesting to me how the "known area" of this game has developed. We've been adventuring in a relatively tiny portion of the game world. In the map thread, it says the game world extends beyond what's shown on the map, and that we'll go beyond the edge of the map. But we haven't, and if the game transitions to securing hexes near town, I'm not sure we ever will. That's unfortunate, IMO.

[Alethan]

Can I just comment on the opportunities of the game and not the players of the game?

I think as a DM you give players ample opportunities to explore, with a varied amount of interest and hooks and such. That's what a DM should do - provide the opportunities to explore.

I love that there are zero railroads for people to ride (or get pushed by). Even when players aren't working through a puzzle or quest the way you had it laid out (or aren't figuring out the clues you've provided), you just... let them do what they do, whether it's a fail or a partial completion or a complete solution of it.

This also highlights one of the things I dislike most about playing a module, which is that there is one goal and generally one path to get there. That concept creates a mindset in everyone (including the DM) that they have to find the RIGHT way. And just like RL, I prefer to think there are many ways to achieve your goals.

[Bluehorse]

I really cannot add anything that Alethane didn't already post. I think this is possibly the most open game I've been a part of so far, and it really does feel like there is always endless more to explore if you dare to stretch your lifelines a little further.

[Marullus]

As low-level PCs, you have been exploring and "point crawling" but as mid-level, I am expecting more "spreading civilization" behavior. Both Blackjack and Bremen have embraced this and are actively seeking to "secure" hexes that are beyond Gaul with their actions (while Clay Weatherwax has chosen to deliberately not civilize Beith's Watch.) As more folks attract followers, this becomes a requirement - "civilizing hexes" around your fortification is what followers are for, imho.

That's fine as long as it's not mandatory. Most of my PCs are happy to remain murder hobos well into the higher levels.

It's interesting to me how the "known area" of this game has developed. We've been adventuring in a relatively tiny portion of the game world. In the map thread, it says the game world extends beyond what's shown on the map, and that we'll go beyond the edge of the map. But we haven't, and if the game transitions to securing hexes near town, I'm not sure we ever will. That's unfortunate, IMO.

Interesting. Thanks!

It's true - I dropped about 650 hexes on my original map and you've been to about 25 of them. Your ability to grow outwards remains pretty extreme.

There's also a reality that, if you don't expand outwards, you'll plateau. We have a number of PCs that just hit level 5, playing two years to reach that XP total. Each level requires doubling XP - staying near the town and going after the same small threats means it will take another two years to hit level 6. You need to expand deeper into the wild, looking for bigger threats, to get bigger xp. The lower level PCs can continue to handle the goblin and kobold issues near town, but the mid-level PCs need to be... well, grander in their expectations.

To that end, I don't see "securing hexes" as a goal, but a side-effect and an enabler. As you come back with big-treasure and need to spend it, construction is the best option. If you build and secure, hire mercs, eventually attract followers, you're changing the world behind you to make it more "safe." But that world is still effectively "behind you."

I see logistics as being the biggest thing that's keeping you near-Gaul. (That, and that I have rich low-level opportunities still explorable nearby.) You've been willing to go 2-3 days out and 2-3 days back, and you've been walking at half- or quarter-speed doing so. The efforts to just go and punch deep into the unknown haven't been popular. (Blackjack's proposal to punch straight past the forest and see what's on the distant mountain got zero takers. Foxy finally figured out that hopping on a horse and riding full-speed is an option - she's twice as far out as anyone has ever been, but had to go alone. Clay's geas from his deity to go deep into the unknown is being handled incrementally. The PC who can ride a griffon hasn't taken advantage of it yet.)

Claiming ruins, making settlements... making "safe areas" outside of Gaul means that you have new launch-points. New launch-points supports your desired incremental style of exploration. Look at the map: Bremen just created a fortified "safe zone" at #11, the easternmost point that anyone has explored. You can now safe-travel there and launch expeditions further east. Blackjack is securing all the hexes up to #19, and setting out to secure that hex as a woodland logging town. Once he does so, then #19 becomes a new safe launch-point for expeditions further north. Clay Weatherwax established a Meetinghouse safe-point at #8 which has already launched expeditions west - the tower at #13 is just sitting there with stables and outbuildings, waiting for someone to do something with it, potentially making a safe-point that secures the forest edge and allows launching further northwest.

...that's what I'm talking about. I don't expect you to stay at your fortresses. I expect you to build them, equip them, and then put them under the management of a vassal. Establish them where you want to make a difference on the world-map and then use them to launch yourself further into the unknown.

[Zhym]

You're right that the slow movement rates necessitated by dragging loot back limits our range. I don't see building as the answer, though. That just extends the "safe area" instead of the distance we can go from it.

To me, the biggest things keeping the world small are the slow movement when bringing loot back and the fact that many of the potential expedition destinations at the beginning of the game are still viable destinations at higher levels. Guhra's tower is still full of goblins. The tomb with the ghost trial is still doing its thing. The kobold tower is free of kobolds, but that cockatrice makes it far from safe. There's a density of stuff near town that makes venturing from town less worth the effort for now.

But my larger point is that I don't want building to be necessary. I mean, I can't imagine Lug caring about building a tower. Or Olaf wanting to re-settle an old dwarf hold. It's just not the game I want to play.

[Marullus]

You're right that the slow movement rates necessitated by dragging loot back limits our range. I don't see building as the answer, though. That just extends the "safe area" instead of the distance we can go from it.

I'll disagree - because you're only hauling the loot back to the nearest safe-point. "Safe travel" from there back to Gaul (or to other safe locales) is then an after-thought. For example, Bremen's followers are providing escorted wagons to and from the white tower - if you adventure east and get loot back to the white tower, you're good.

To me, the biggest things keeping the world small are the slow movement when bringing loot back and the fact that many of the potential expedition destinations at the beginning of the game are still viable destinations at higher levels. Guhra's tower is still full of goblins. The tomb with the ghost trial is still doing its thing. The kobold tower is free of kobolds, but that cockatrice makes it far from safe. There's a density of stuff near town that makes venturing from town less worth the effort for now.

Yes, and thank you. This conversation helped me realize that error. I've upped challenges on areas you're going to, which hindered you going to more areas. Also, my dungeons are good for tabletop but huge for play-by-post standards. There's some scaling to be done there, too.

I hope that current expeditions will be able to "close out" Guhra's tower, the Demon Hole, the Ghostly Trial, and Scatha's horde. While there's always going to be some "replay value" (new PCs will have continued low-level opportunities near Gaul and PCs tend to leave some side opportunities unexplored on these big quests) hopefully it helps spur further exploration.

But my larger point is that I don't want building to be necessary. I mean, I can't imagine Lug caring about building a tower. Or Olaf wanting to re-settle an old dwarf hold. It's just not the game I want to play.

Fair enough. I don't expect to compel anyone to do anything. As Alethan said...

I love that there are zero railroads for people to ride (or get pushed by). Even when players aren't working through a puzzle or quest the way you had it laid out (or aren't figuring out the clues you've provided), you just... let them do what they do, whether it's a fail or a partial completion or a complete solution of it.

I'm sure that Lug and Olaf will find other uses for their gold. Fingers has acted to expand opportunities in Gaul itself (which is cool) including the perpetual holding of coin surplus (giving options to other non-spenders). Even just providing venture capital to other player's PCs has cool outcomes.

[onlyme]

I expect you to build them, equip them, and then put them under the management of a vassal. Establish them where you want to make a difference on the world-map and then use them to launch yourself further into the unknown.

Markd shudders to think how loyal his outsourced management team would be...



I would say my problem is that I am very linear thinking. I cant see building in-town or offline type maintenance at the same time (RL time) as going on adventures. Likewise, I dont even look at the adventure requests until my PCs have arrived in town after one.

[Zhym]

Zhym wrote:

You're right that the slow movement rates necessitated by dragging loot back limits our range. I don't see building as the answer, though. That just extends the "safe area" instead of the distance we can go from it.

I'll disagree - because you're only hauling the loot back to the nearest safe-point. "Safe travel" from there back to Gaul (or to other safe locales) is then an after-thought. For example, Bremen's followers are providing escorted wagons to and from the white tower - if you adventure east and get loot back to the white tower, you're good.

Okay, it's a solution. It's just not my preferred solution. I'd like there to be a way to go on a long trek and still be able to bring loot back without it taking forever. But that point is probably irrelevant as long as there's plenty to do near town.

[Marullus]

I'd like there to be a way to go on a long trek and still be able to bring loot back without it taking forever.

Got it.

...but that's an intentional difficulty inherent to the Lab Lord system. There are many ways to overcome it and choosing among their advantages/disadvantages is part of the game.

[Alethan]

So you're saying Bandy should use his statue more?

[Marullus]

So you're saying Bandy should use his statue more?

All I am saying is that's a uniquely efficient way to solve a travel problem. You can activate it for six hours at 9mph...

[Alethan]

So you're saying Bandy should use his statue more?

All I am saying is that's a uniquely efficient way to solve a travel problem. You can activate it for six hours at 9mph...

Well... since knowing what it is, he hasn't had any significant travel opportunities to put it to use. It's one of those things you want to have handy for an emergency, you know? But the other thing is that he doesn't want to travel somewhere ahead of everyone else and then end up alone.

But believe me, I do have it in mind and will use it when the opportunity arises.

[Zhym]

So you're saying Bandy should use his statue more?

The who what, now?

[Alethan]

So you're saying Bandy should use his statue more?

The who what, now?

Oh. Er... nothing.

[Zhym]

Too many secrets, Marty.

[Alethan]

Too many secrets, Marty.

Don't worry, it will all be revealed in good time. And it will be great when it happens!

[Dram]

I like the game play. There is always another adventure to go out on when one is finished.

Baxtaw is hoping to return back to Gaul and have enough coin to begin building a mage tower(guild) for the spell casters to study and trade spells with each other for a minimal cost for the upkeep of the tower and to work with guilds.


Neegan is just beginning his career as a adventurer wanting to make alot of coin.

[Zhym]

Pendleton has been thinking of building a guild tower. Perpahs he and Baxtaw could co-found a guild, together with anyone else who wants to go in on it?