OOC Chatter I

[Marullus]

All good points, thank you. Especially hadn't considered the 8,001xp factor.

How about a straight-out choice on a 2001xp item, either 10 charges or 1/week. One charge/day. Then either can upgrade to 1/day.

Or, same choice, charges or permanent. The charges can be used in any amount but can't be upgraded. The 1/week can upgrade to 1/day.

[Zorroroaster]

Man! A guy used his special spooky sleepy sword on a buncha ogres and everyone loses their minds!

Just seeing this now. Hadn't really thought of it being a loophole, though I can see that argument. With a finite number of charges I feel really conspicuous even using it as its rapidly losing it's usefulness.

Call it...temporarily overpowered?

[Spearmint]

To continue the Heirloom debate, here are a few thoughts. I think we should treat each one as a personal relic or artifact that only family can use, so no casting charm on Silent and saying, "hey buddy nice sword I think you would like me to look after that for you, etc."

Each one as well should be energised to action through some personal devotion, the oil lamp in the example buffed up and polished daily while the character sings a bedtime lullaby. Blackjack for example has a carved ivory statuette of a lion. Each sunrise he uses it as a focus for devotional prayer, completing a 'tai chi's meditation before it to honour the spirits of his ancestors. The totem is powered to Remove or Cause Fear as per the spell.

Rather than have a blanket 10 charges, (use them and lose them), it seems good to have at 1st level one charge daily providing the personal time with it is spent. It is recharged then after the appropriate action. Each increase in level brings another boon to the item, but as the attributes increase so does the devotional expectation. To be able to 'pounce like a stalking lion' on some unsuspecting prey or opponent, ( as per jump spell), Blackjack might need to spend a few turns, barefoot and silent, away from folk using a different Tai chi routine. (Try doing that in a forest surrounded by bears and creep crawlies).

So as each level is gained, a new attribute is gifted commensurate with appropriate devotion to the item.

Thoughts?

[Rusty Tincanne]

Man! A guy used his special spooky sleepy sword on a buncha ogres and everyone loses their minds!

Just seeing this now. Hadn't really thought of it being a loophole, though I can see that argument. With a finite number of charges I feel really conspicuous even using it as its rapidly losing it's usefulness.

Call it...temporarily overpowered?

I didn't know there was a rule to make a loophole for when I posted. I was just thinking that an heirloom item shouldn't automatically go defunct when there is a rule out there allowing us to add +1 to weaponry or extra HP to animals. Why not allow for extending the "life" of an heirloom object?

Spearmint's suggestion is interesting but I wonder if it is realistic that everyone would have a routine for their item. Maybe that is in the storytelling though. I like the Idea of additional assets to an item, though it seems like that would just be a parallel upgrade and start at 10 Charges (unless the object is made for such an action).

As for new owners/users, perhaps heirloom items should always reset to the initial benefits when passed on. And if the original owner ever gains control of it, the item would be restored to its last known power level for said user. (Or for an evil GM factor, the item slowly loses potency, losing one upgrade/week it is being used by another person. If that goes to no upgrades then the item has lost its magic (for that character).) That would remove some incentive for stealing items and also give a good reason to hunt down an item that was taken with expediency.
You cannot be charmed into doing something against your nature. I don't see giving up a magical heirloom being in anyone's nature, particularly a murder-hobo.

And for what if it's worth, none of this pertains to Clay. And all he has is an item that can help with foraging. Maybe with locating things too, but not to the same the power as the spell. Clearly I want thinking big enough!

I am happy to abide by any rules set by Marullus. Thanks for considering our opinions.

[Rusty Tincanne]

Fingers heads outside to serve the ale to anyone who wants it. All he asks is that people remember who the beer was from: Fingers McGraw, generous all-around great guy

Fingers decides to trade of disposition from Hyde to the rest of Gaul? Or its that an attempt at eulogIizing himself for XP?

[KingOfCowards]

I am not sure why heirlooms need to differ from any other magical item. If it has charges, you may use them until charges are used up. A particularly powerful spell-like ability could be limited to one charge a day per DM discretion. I like and can appreciate the thought and story behind some of the characters heirlooms, but I really don't want to see the heirlooms become the focus if this campaign. Hopefully we will see other magical items introduced, with even greater and more exciting powers as this campaign goes on.

I might point out that item xp could prove to be a dangerous concept, and never really got fully tested in Keehnelf's campaign. With each 2,000 xp a new item could realistically be given another power. That doesn't seem like a big deal now, but by 4th level I might have a glove, a hat, a stick, and a belt each capable of casting sleep and right now we are arguing about a sword with presumably 10 charges.

[Zhym]

Fingers decides to trade of disposition from Hyde to the rest of Gaul? Or its that an attempt at eulogIizing himself for XP?

I don't know that "eulogizing" is the right word, but yes, it's self-promotion for XP.

I might point out that item xp could prove to be a dangerous concept, and never really got fully tested in Keehnelf's campaign.

That's an excellent point. Keehnelf introduced the idea relatively late in his campaign. I don't think anyone ever accumulated enough item XP to add a new power to an item, so it really was completely untested.

Also, Keehnelf's campaign had a lot of magic items come out fairly quickly, some of which already had powers other than bonuses (Nine Tongues's sword, for example, and Orrin's shield—which Lug still hasn't managed to return yet ). By the time Keehnelf introduced the concept of item XP, many PCs already had natural candidates for items to dump more XP into (none of which, IIRC, had charges).

Charges may be more powerful than a straight +1 bonus or 1/day use. Labyrinth Lord doesn't give GP values for magic items AFAIK, but in AD&D1e (and OSRIC), a scroll is worth 300 gp per spell level, so 10 1st-level spell charges are worth about 3,000 gp—probably more because, for example, a fighter can use an item with 10 Sleep charges while a scroll with 10 sleep spells could only be used by a spell caster. That 3,000 gp is more than the value of a +1 sword (2,000), a quiver full of +1 arrows (2,880 for 24), most other +1 weapons (a +1 bow is an exception, at 3,500), a +1 shield, or +1 armor of ring mail or less. But 10 charges of Sleep are allowed as a first upgrade while a straight +1 bonus is not. I think Keehnelf undervalued the charges, personally.

I don't have any prescriptions for changes, however. I very much agree with this:

I like and can appreciate the thought and story behind some of the characters heirlooms, but I really don't want to see the heirlooms become the focus if this campaign.

My suggestion? Do whatever requires the fewest rules and hang balance. Finely-calibrated balance is not why we play ODD variants, IMO.

[Marullus]

To continue the Heirloom debate, here are a few thoughts. I think we should treat each one as a personal relic or artifact that only family can use,

The thing is... this is contrary to the purpose of this kind of magic. Heroic items are to allow an investment of legacy by a PC into the gameworld that is explicitly usable by others.

In OD&D, the characters are inherently mortal and frequently die.

If Lug's bow gains notoriety, and thus a heroic item power investment, then when Lug dies he lives on, just a little, through the legend of his bow in the hands of another PC. The same applies for the memoriam and tribute rules - finding ways to allow memoriam and legacy for PCs with the assumption that all PCs are likely to die in this harsh world.

The idea of the Heirloom Items grants that PCs who are not largely endowed in themselves have been endowed with something from another's legacy to start with - this encourages at least one point of background story for their PC, too.

Rather than have a blanket 10 charges, (use them and lose them), it seems good to have at 1st level one charge daily providing the personal time with it is spent. It is recharged then after the appropriate action. ...
So as each level is gained, a new attribute is gifted commensurate with appropriate devotion to the item.

Background stories are inherently optional in OD&D... the heirloom items tried to encourage at least a modicum, a single link, to a story to give characters depth. The majority of stories are, "I stole it from someone," "I won it playing cards," or "I was told some made-up story but it came from a wizard's scrap heap." The majority of players here are not interested in intense ritual ancestor worship. That you ARE interested in this, Spearmint, is to your credit and the depth of your character development and roleplay is recognized when you receive RP awards at the end of expeditions. But it isn't for everyone.

I'd recommend upgrading your totem to a permanent 1/timeframe item, and you can color that it requires devotional activities - that's totally reasonable.

The total combination of "an item exclusive to an IC family so it can't be passed on that gives new spell-like powers every character level" has a net effect of adding daily spells to non-spell-casters, and applied to all characters, fundamentally changes the game in a way not intended here.

You cannot be charmed into doing something against your nature. I don't see giving up a magical heirloom being in anyone's nature, particularly a murder-hobo.

Yes, this.

Also, Keehnelf's campaign had a lot of magic items come out fairly quickly, some of which already had powers other than bonuses (Nine Tongues's sword, for example, and Orrin's shield—which Lug still hasn't managed to return yet ). By the time Keehnelf introduced the concept of item XP, many PCs already had natural candidates for items to dump more XP into (none of which, IIRC, had charges).

This is a good point. Part of the reason I included the heirloom items was with the expectation that they help a new PC but would be potentially eclipsed by more powerful items relatively soon. You've barely gone into the gameworld (the first expedition to return only went one hex and came back), but there's a lot out there. The backstory states that there was so much magic here that they destroyed the world in cataclysm. I don't intend this to be a magic-lite game.

Charges may be more powerful than a straight +1 bonus or 1/day use. Labyrinth Lord doesn't give GP values for magic items AFAIK, but in AD&D1e (and OSRIC), a scroll is worth 300 gp per spell level, so 10 1st-level spell charges are worth about 3,000 gp—probably more because, for example, a fighter can use an item with 10 Sleep charges while a scroll with 10 sleep spells could only be used by a spell caster. That 3,000 gp is more than the value of a +1 sword (2,000), a quiver full of +1 arrows (2,880 for 24), most other +1 weapons (a +1 bow is an exception, at 3,500), a +1 shield, or +1 armor of ring mail or less. But 10 charges of Sleep are allowed as a first upgrade while a straight +1 bonus is not. I think Keehnelf undervalued the charges, personally.

This is exactly the argument I was trying to unravel. Thank you for this. You've earned a +1 recognition for rules law.

How about this:

• An heirloom item is either permanent or charged.
• If it is charged, it has 5 charges (not ten). Additional upgrades can grant five more at a time.
• If it is permanent, it starts at 1/week (1/expedition). Additional upgrades can move it to 1/day, then 2/day.

Thoughts?

[Zhym]

So who's up for another expedition? It sometimes seems like role playing group formation takes forever, so I thought I'd bring it OOC.

Fingers is up for some exploration, as I posed IC. If this game works like Keehnelf's did, we should be able to set out in a direction and come across things just by wandering around enough.

[Rusty Tincanne]

I wiuld roll up a second character to join you. I would prefer that it not be a cleric, though. I have one going already. A dishonorably discharged, bribe-taking, womanizing, former city guard? But i will leave the final decision to the dice.

But let me know if you want a non-cleric in the party.

[Zhym]

Hey, I rolled up a non-cleric too, so glass houses and such. The more the merrier, even if we do end up wishing we had more clerics along.

When the next expedition gets back, we should all roll up clerics and send out a party composed entirely of clerics.

[KingOfCowards]

So who's up for another expedition? It sometimes seems like role playing group formation takes forever, so I thought I'd bring it OOC.

Fingers is up for some exploration, as I posed IC. If this game works like Keehnelf's did, we should be able to set out in a direction and come across things just by wandering around enough.

I wouldn't mind finding some more of the caravan plunder. Do we know locations of the next goblin holes or was Guhnk required to show us the way?

[Zhym]

The caravan plunder wasn't exactly a rich haul, and it was a pain to drag back to town. I'm thinking there must be better things to be found around Gaul than beer and dried fish.

[Marullus]

The wagon haul was a player-initiative. I appreciate the creativity in that! The nature of the requested plot hook required some creativity in the nature of the loot (they weren't hauling buckets of gold northward...).

As I pointed out before, you only looked at one out of four known holes in that hex. You'd need to search and find the remaining entrances without Guhnk available to you, which would take extra time (depending how many rolls you take).

You can also go beyond that one hex and adventure in any direction.

[Zhym]

Let's start up a group to explore east. No big itinerary—just head out into the eastern hexes and see what we find. It'll set out on May 8.

Who's in?

(Sorry if this is pushy—"I want to do this, who's coming with?" seems to get groups formed more quickly than, "So what's everyone want to do?")

[onlyme]

mark'd would explore anywhere, I suppose...

[Stirling]

need a cleric? maybe your prayers got answered?

[Zhym]

A cleric or twelve would be useful, yes.

[Zorroroaster]

Silent is in.

[Keehnelf]

I haven't had a chance to look over all the background and such, but I think I have time for a single-strand commitment if there's a convenient opening. Would anyone mind if I hopped on board? (feel free to tell me so via PM if you don't want to appear rude in public)