OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

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Marullus
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OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#1 Post by Marullus »

This is an open thread for people to chat, exchange ideas, and provide feedback/input for the game's initial development. Feel free to jump in.

:)

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Zhym
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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#2 Post by Zhym »

Neat!

So, what are the rules for bringing our beloved West Marches characters to this game? Do they travel from Vaul to Gaul, or is this an alternate universe type setup, where our PCs have been in Gaul all along? And who will be the first to grow a goatee?
Last edited by Zhym on Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#3 Post by Zorroroaster »

What's his name going to be, Zhym?

Log? Rug? Nug. Lump. Lester Ulfred Granston.

Marullus, as we are in the midst of some high hilarity over in Alleborg - what tone would you like to set here? Vaul experienced some high drama in its time. Are we aiming for a similarly operatic feel?
()==[:::::::::::::>
[]-Orrin Lighthammer, Dwarven Gymnast-[] The Arch-Duchy of Vaul: A West Marches Labyrinth Lord Sandbox
[]-Arnulf The Banal, Manchild SuperMage-[] The Lone City in the Wildlands (OSRIC)
[]-Nai Tnam, Dwarven Cleric-[] Lair of the Black Druid - OSRIC
[]-Bronn Arnulfsen, Half-Orc Fighter-[] Valnwall, The Barrowmaze (LL)
[]-<[RIP]>Eduard d'Arnise, Elven Fighter/Mage-[] The Lone City in the Wildlands (OSRIC)

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Zhym
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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#4 Post by Zhym »

I was thinking Nug. Or Lug II. Or maybe Gul—it's a mirror universe! Or Bizarro World.

But I guess Bizzaro World Lug would be a wise little hobbit who avoids combat.

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Marullus
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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#5 Post by Marullus »

Zhym wrote:Neat!

So, what are the rules for bringing our beloved West Marches characters to this game? Do they travel from Vaul to Gaul, or is this an alternate universe type setup, where our PCs have been in Gaul all along? And who will be the first to grow a goatee?
This is a struggle... I want people to be able to preserve their beloved PCs, but have no notes from Keehnelf or ability to even see rolls on the sheets to verify them. A sheet could be linked to me, but the player could edit it to say anything they want. How do we be fair to everyone?
Zorroroaster wrote: Marullus, as we are in the midst of some high hilarity over in Alleborg - what tone would you like to set here? Vaul experienced some high drama in its time. Are we aiming for a similarly operatic feel?
I love that game. :). It tends towards slapstick and comedy, and my personal preference here is to play it more straight. I think the feel that the old West Marches game had was ideal. People kept it IC. Lug and Marge were both funny, but IC-funny.

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#6 Post by Zhym »

Marullus wrote:This is a struggle... I want people to be able to preserve their beloved PCs, but have no notes from Keehnelf or ability to even see rolls on the sheets to verify them. A sheet could be linked to me, but the player could edit it to say anything they want. How do we be fair to everyone?
Yeah, I don't know. Ordinarily, you could look at the dice roller log to make sure PC stats are the same as what were rolled, but the game has been idle enough now that even the newer characters' stat rolls aren't in the logs anymore. I still have some of the PMs Keehnelf sent out with sheets for the various expedition groups, which covers most of the PCs. But of course, the time to screenshot those would have been before people might have had a reason to update the sheets.

Really, all I think you can do is what any DM can do when someone asks to bring in a PC from another game: look at the character sheet, decide whether the PC seems legit, and make any changes you think are necessary for your game. Or just tell people to roll up new PCs. :)

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#7 Post by Zorroroaster »

Might just have to say to heck with it and trust them to import them as they were. If there's no way to verify, there's no point in worrying about it.
()==[:::::::::::::>
[]-Orrin Lighthammer, Dwarven Gymnast-[] The Arch-Duchy of Vaul: A West Marches Labyrinth Lord Sandbox
[]-Arnulf The Banal, Manchild SuperMage-[] The Lone City in the Wildlands (OSRIC)
[]-Nai Tnam, Dwarven Cleric-[] Lair of the Black Druid - OSRIC
[]-Bronn Arnulfsen, Half-Orc Fighter-[] Valnwall, The Barrowmaze (LL)
[]-<[RIP]>Eduard d'Arnise, Elven Fighter/Mage-[] The Lone City in the Wildlands (OSRIC)

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#8 Post by Zhym »

The original forum might contain enough of a record of some stats to keep people honest. For example, strength and dexterity came out in some of the Harrowing festival competitions. It would be easy enough to suss out strength bonuses from attack rolls. If someone really cared, he or she could go back and look up a PC's rolls.

But, yeah, I think trust is the way to go here.

On another note, I'll admit to being a little ambivalent about this reboot. On the one hand, it'd be great for Lug, Ulf, Harold, and Melvin to see action again. On the other hand, looking back at the Harrowing festival thread reminded me that there was a lot of Keehnelf in that game. Marullus, it's obvious from your posts in Keehnelf's game and others that if anyone is qualified to pick up where Keehnelf left off, it's you, but I still worry that we might hit an "uncanny valley" where the game is in this weird zone of being just enough like the Vaul game to remind us of it without quite being the same.

If it were my choice, I think I'd keep the rules and the general structure but change the setting. You could make it more your own setting (i.e., not "Gaul") or you could make it more of a sequel. In the latter case, maybe we pick up some time (weeks/months?) after the battle of Vaul. If the battle ended poorly, that might account for why many PCs will probably be absent in this game. Or maybe your game starts with the Battle of Vaul—unlike most of the West Marches, the pieces for that battle are mostly on the table (except that Vaul himself has some unrevealed magical powers). All it needs is someone to play both sides.

What do you think?

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#9 Post by Starbeard »

Zhym wrote:I was thinking Nug. Or Lug II. Or maybe Gul—it's a mirror universe! Or Bizarro World.

But I guess Bizzaro World Lug would be a wise little hobbit who avoids combat.
I think, since Vaul => Gaul, Lug should => Luv. It makes sense. :D

I'm fine either way regarding importing PCs, either wholesale or through cleverly similar names. After all, just about everyone in the world has their favourite set of go-to PCs who somehow make an appearance in nearly every campaign, with slightly different names or characterizations each time. Whether Gaul becomes the home of Lug's identical cousin Glug, Lug's mirror self with re-rolled stats and new alignment, Lug the Dwarf, or even Lug Himself (with or without explanation of how he can be in both Gaul and Vaul), it all seems good to me. When reading mythology, we really don't care whether the stories and characterizations are consistent from one text to the next, each builds on top of the others to create a tapestry of wonderful parallels and contradictions, creating a meta-myth (Darth Vader is cool because he can be Luke's father and not Luke's father all at once!).

That being said, as long as there's ever a possibility of the West Marches springing back up, because both use LL and have the same/similar core campaign rules, it's also possible to conceive of a format where PCs from one campaign can spend time adventuring over in the other campaign, much like travelling to a new city except with a different DM. Each DM would have control over the particulars of that—and since currently only the North Marches are up, Marullus would have sole control over how PCs can migrate and which items they can carry with them (or how those items carry over—just because it's magic in one way in Vaul doesn't mean it has the same magic in Gaul).

In a perfect world there'd be room for any number of Marches, all using LL and the same core house rules developed by Keehnelf, but each with its own atmosphere and touches to the house rules to reflect the DM's idea. Lug could travel from one to the next in accordance with whatever the group's game-hopping rule was, and conquer the vastness of the LL megaworld.

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#10 Post by Zorroroaster »

You know, the more I think about this the more I think I don't want to import or transfer my Vaul characters over. As much as I love them, it's a weird thing to do and I think Zhym hit it on the head with the term "uncanny valley."

It's a personal preference though - while I might want to start fresh characters in a more or less familiar milieu, I wouldn't deny others the opportunity to import Vaul PCs if they are comfortable adapting them somehow.

Unless of course, someone wants to posit a dramatic device to bring them over. If there was a good enough in-game plot line or idea that made it easy to imagine them coming over, I might think about it.
()==[:::::::::::::>
[]-Orrin Lighthammer, Dwarven Gymnast-[] The Arch-Duchy of Vaul: A West Marches Labyrinth Lord Sandbox
[]-Arnulf The Banal, Manchild SuperMage-[] The Lone City in the Wildlands (OSRIC)
[]-Nai Tnam, Dwarven Cleric-[] Lair of the Black Druid - OSRIC
[]-Bronn Arnulfsen, Half-Orc Fighter-[] Valnwall, The Barrowmaze (LL)
[]-<[RIP]>Eduard d'Arnise, Elven Fighter/Mage-[] The Lone City in the Wildlands (OSRIC)

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#11 Post by Zhym »

The only plot device I've been able to think of is that the Battle of Vaul didn't go well and our characters fled to Gaul (or whatever the new town's name will be) when the hobgoblins took over Vaul.

But that's sort of a depressing angle to take.

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#12 Post by Marullus »

Good discussion. My preference is to have it different enough to be distinct. I don't have enough of Keehnelf's work to make it the same, so I need to redevelop the map and it can't really be "the same." The failed siege of Vaul and returning-a-few-years-later could work, but only if we have a pass-down of ground-truth about the maps, items, and characters. I am concerned that we just don't have that.

So, I'm looking at this being a similar type of world, but not the same world. My approach to world developing is a little different, for example. Keehnelf described that he randomized all items on the grid then developed a backstory to knit it together. My usual approach is a bit different in that I love coherent layers of history. I'm going to lay down the eras first, overlay them on the maps, and develop the current truth based on their intersections. I use randomization to fill in some color and add creativity at the end. I'm also considering some tweaks to things (like Gods) and will have different descriptions and personas from the start. At least, that was my intent. I'll bounce things off you more as I take some time to commit them to paper... err... keyboard.

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#13 Post by Marullus »

First, and easiest, question:

What do you think of the three alignments, versus nine? On reading the three alignments more closely, with law and good conflated and evil/chaos conflated, it strikes me as unhelpful.

Alignment has two key purposes that I see: 1) relating to Gods, and 2) providing a clear starting point for persona on an otherwise simple character sheet.

I'm considering shifting to the lawful/neutral/chaotic and good/neutral/evil paradigm to help both of those. I'm defining three initial "Good" gods - one of lawful, one neutral, and one chaotic. If chaotic is also evil, that doesn't work, and also bothers me philosophically. Things that bother me philosophically, however, aren't necessarily important. I find it difficult to define a range of personalities in the three-point scale, and moving this to the nine-point scale impacts the game little. But... would it impact too little, and thus be insignificant? What are your thoughts?

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#14 Post by Marullus »

Second question: Go read the diety examples posted here. I am brainstorming on this and would like some feedback. I've seen too many times that clerics are put in the role of "heal-bot" and am working to make it a more interesting role. They are driven by their deities, and I think that falls back on me to offer something better, there. I added the idea of contritions - what the God requires from those who seek healing, blessings, etc. Let me know what you think of this idea.

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#15 Post by Starbeard »

Good work Marullus. I quickly skimmed the deities post and like it. Forcing clerics to jump through one of three hoops to receive power is a good touch.

Thise are interesting thoughts on alignment, and it's well worth considering what jives with you best. If you would like something in between 3 and 9, there's also the 5 point system from Holmes Basic: Lawful/Chaotic Good, Lawful/Chaotic Evil, and Neutral. I've never played with it, but it seems like it has its merits.

Ironically, my own belief is that fewer alignments allows greater flexibility in characterization, but I wouldn't argue for using one over the other. I play with 3 and 9 alignments all the time and enjoy the merits of both.

What I mean is that chaos only conflates with evil if you look at the 3 alignment system as a reduction of the 9 alignment system. With 9 there's a moral sub-alignment and a political sub-alignment, and since the original alignment system happened to use terms that are now associated with the political axis, it's quite common to silently fold the two together instead of dropping the concept of the political axis entirely. So instead of law/neutral/chaos, it's interpreted as lawful good/(probably chaotic) neutral/chaotic evil.

In reality, though, I think adding the political axis to create 9 alignments actually limits the possibilities of characterization, though. Is a capitalist lawful, neutral or chaotic? And if he lived in a socialist or fascist society, would his alignment change? Does an anarchist inherently have to be chaotic? What alignment was Brutus, who was so passionate about his lawfulness that he broke it through regicide? I'm not saying the limitations are bad, in fact I think they are an awesome way of injecting melodrama into the game with 9 fairly clear-cut personality archetypes. For example, in just about every game I've played, all Lawful Good characters tend to treat other Lawful Good characters as having largely common interests; they are more likely to agree, to adventure together, and so on. Exactly what you'd expect if two Hero types in a melodrama were to meet. This can be really fun—incidentally, old melodramas never used more than 6 to half a dozen character types, and featured the same dramatic conventions that are usually part and parcel of RPG adventures: a focus on building atmosphere and mood, overtly heightened drama between characters, plots pushed forward by random coincidences, lots of action, etc.

On the other hand, the 3 alignment system only considers one axis, which can be catered to the campaign: it could show loyalty or moral obligation in some cosmic war of order vs chaos, or light vs dark; or more usually, simply whether the character can wilfully harm others (whom he sees as equals) for his own gain without remorse. All other factors needn't have a qualification because there are infinitely too many possibilities to quantify. The way I run it, there's no reason a Lawful and Chaotic character can't trust each other, or a Lawful character can't be a tax evading hedonist.

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#16 Post by Zorroroaster »

Amazing work on your pantheon, Marullus. I also like the idea of making clerics work for it.

Starbeard summarized things really well with regards the alignment debate. I'm happy with whatever you choose. While I'm most used to the 9 point scale, I think it's just up to the players to adapt to whatever metric is being used. A 3 point scale leaves morality out of it, but gives players more room to play nuanced characters.

Might be fun to play with the 5 though, see if it works.
()==[:::::::::::::>
[]-Orrin Lighthammer, Dwarven Gymnast-[] The Arch-Duchy of Vaul: A West Marches Labyrinth Lord Sandbox
[]-Arnulf The Banal, Manchild SuperMage-[] The Lone City in the Wildlands (OSRIC)
[]-Nai Tnam, Dwarven Cleric-[] Lair of the Black Druid - OSRIC
[]-Bronn Arnulfsen, Half-Orc Fighter-[] Valnwall, The Barrowmaze (LL)
[]-<[RIP]>Eduard d'Arnise, Elven Fighter/Mage-[] The Lone City in the Wildlands (OSRIC)

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#17 Post by Marullus »

I was fine with the three point and "leaving morality out of it" - considering law and chaos but letting good and evil a factor of roleplay. My consternation came from re-reading the Lab Lord descriptions, which conflate it as lawful good/neutral/chaotic evil.

Perhaps we just clarify to make sure these aren't conflated?

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#18 Post by Starbeard »

An FAQ post on how you're handling the 3 alignments would be really helpful. I'd also be open to using five or nine alignments, and perhaps the main benefit of those is that they don't even need an explanation.

I've never used the five-point system, but being from Holmes Basic gives it good street cred for being imported into LL.

I've played nine alignments quite extensively, as I'm sure everyone has, but never in the context of Basic/LL. I've always played 3 alignments in D&D and 9 alignments in AD&D. Mixing D&D classes with AD&D alignments sounds interesting, and could be a surefire way of differentiating between otherwise broad character types—rolling up a rangery-type as a chaotic good thief, for example.

I agree with Zorroroaster, I think whatever you choose will be easy enough for the players to adopt. I say go with whatever you find most enjoyable for yourself as the referee and primary world builder.

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#19 Post by Marullus »

Thanks for the discussion - all very helpful!

New information now captured here: Character Creation

Thoughts and feedback?

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#20 Post by Zhym »

I'm a fan of the simpler Lawful-Neutral-Chaotic alignment system in a Basic game, myself. The difference between "Good" and "Neutral" (I'm assuming evil alignments for PCs are right out) doesn't really affect behavior that much.

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