OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

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Rusty Tincanne
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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#61 Post by Rusty Tincanne »

Marullus wrote:Atheists have freedom of action, though. :)
The three primary gods are interesting. All basically good, but their differences focus more on their views on rules.
Marullus wrote:The question, then, is - do we shift the breakpoints for the heirloom items?
The greedy bastard in me says, "shift the breakpoints because I want a magic item!" but I haven't played enough LL to really speak to the matter. :P

In all, I really like the workd you are creating and am excited to play alongside everyone here. I know you are planning this to start in May, but when can we start character generation? I will be rolling up a new character from scratch.

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Zorroroaster
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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#62 Post by Zorroroaster »

See, now I kinda dig that. A plot device that sucks all the orphans into another realm, that's pretty cool. Orrin just might go for that. He was just getting interesting, having been through hell in that mountain and coming back all damaged. I wonder how he would handle the dissonance of waking up somewhere alien?

Would he embrace the chance to start over? Would he rail against the cruel gods that keep messing with him? Would he just snap and go completely loopy? I could see PCs considering a wholesale alignment change if they went around the bend from a transition like that. Might be fun.

Although I wouldn't want to get on Mad Lug's™ bad side. We had a hard enough time handling Regular Lug™!
()==[:::::::::::::>
[]-Orrin Lighthammer, Dwarven Gymnast-[] The Arch-Duchy of Vaul: A West Marches Labyrinth Lord Sandbox
[]-Arnulf The Banal, Manchild SuperMage-[] The Lone City in the Wildlands (OSRIC)
[]-Nai Tnam, Dwarven Cleric-[] Lair of the Black Druid - OSRIC
[]-Bronn Arnulfsen, Half-Orc Fighter-[] Valnwall, The Barrowmaze (LL)
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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#63 Post by Zhym »

Yeah, I don't know. It does sound like a cool story, but it also fast-forwards past some stuff Lug had going on (like the big reunion with Orrin). And Lug did spend so much effort getting and keeping that bow that losing it...well, he'd be a different person after that happened.

The more I think about it, the more I think rolling a new PC makes sense.

(I mean, the other way you could go is to allow PCs to bring in magic items if they seem reasonable, but that requires DM judgment.)

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#64 Post by Marullus »

Rusty Tincanne wrote:The greedy bastard in me says, "shift the breakpoints because I want a magic item!" but I haven't played enough LL to really speak to the matter. :P

In all, I really like the workd you are creating and am excited to play alongside everyone here. I know you are planning this to start in May, but when can we start character generation? I will be rolling up a new character from scratch.
I'd like to open characters soon (perhaps within a week); we just need to nail down some of these fundamental decisions first. On the larger timeline, I need to do a little more development on the map and history before the first expedition. I am also moving into a new house next week and my wife has exclusive claim to a large chunk of time. :) Those are both drivers for a May start for expeditions.

Breakpoints and Math

If we accept 63 points as the median, I could reset the levels. 62 or below gets 4002xp and 70 or below gets 2001xp. That would set it so that 24% of past characters would've had 4002xp and 32% more would have gotten 2001xp (for 56% of characters). 44% are above-average enough to just get good stats. I also am considering setting the lower bar at 60 and the upper limit at 68, which makes it a bit more rare on both accounts (i.e. less than half of characters have a starting magic item). The magic items drive story, though, and the question is - how unbalancing is it, really? Most characters are likely to have some kind of (better) item before too long, and it is a magic-rich setting.

Is this a new chronicle, or a continuation?

The answer is both, but the balancing is hard. It is definitely a new world with a new setting and new history to discover and to make. Allowing characters to transport in directly with past experience and memory makes it a continuation as well, and raises questions about balance for those starting out versus those continuing... but there are always new PCs entering the sandbox, so that's not as important as I'd otherwise consider it.

If we do the plot-device portal, that becomes a/the major plot point for the beginning of the chronicle. An event like that is monumental and it drives story going forward, defining and changing the game. I can run with that if that's desired. The alternative is that we start the game as the "alternative reality" - allow the characters but fuzz their backstories. From Zhym and Zorroroaster, it seems that would be less desirable because the life events are what made the character, and I understand that. So, do we commit to the plot device and build around it? Who else has a vote?

Allowing items
Zhym wrote:(I mean, the other way you could go is to allow PCs to bring in magic items if they seem reasonable, but that requires DM judgment.)
There are a few concerns have I have about this, all of which I welcome input and discussion on.

First, the aspect of fairness. This was my gut reaction, but as above, could be mitigatable.

Second, the unknowableness of Keehnelf. Many of the items presumably had latent or hidden powers or drawbacks which we do not have insight into. It is impossible for me to adjudicate without better awareness of what was going on.

Third, new setting, new focus. Items and locations are the two main ways in which this new campaign's history and reality will be discovered. I have a vested interest in pushing people towards new items because they'll link to the new setting. Legacy items tied to a world which is lost to you are a different kind of story, and I need to decide how much and how many we want for the good of the story. On one side, I say "these items will never link to our setting." On the other side, I say "these items become RP catalysts for those playing out the dimension-jumper timeline."

Fourth, the "reasonableness" recommendation above. I am hesitant to allow some and not others, or "only the reasonable ones," because I don't have a basis for setting a reasonableness standard. I would instead be making arbitrary judgments as the DM, and that's not a place I like to be on something this important to players.

I'd like to limit the total imported wealth coming into the game at game-start at least somewhat, and so I proposed re-buying your starting equipment in line with the others. We could easily say these goods came with you through the portal as worn.
  • If we wanted to allow limited magic items, we could say it allowed one item (the one in your hands at that moment) with you.
  • We could allow all items and say that "magic works differently" and that the other items just lost their enchantments on the trip.
  • We could drop you all in naked, and you got your new starting gear in the town.
I want something fair that we can move forward with. Please provide inputs.

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#65 Post by Zorroroaster »

You know, the more I read in here the more inclined I am to support the idea of starting fresh, all around. No portals, no alternate realities. (at least as far as PCs are concerned.)

Here's my thinking. You've done a truly admirable job of trying to not only accommodate the switch in milieu, but to inject your own flavour and style into things. There are some great ideas that have come from the debate we've had that I think will produce an exciting game to play in.

That being said, I think there's a small risk that because the genesis of this was someone else's IP, you would feel beholden to honour too much, at the expense of truly running things YOUR way. Hard enough to DM a game, let alone one that has to perform fan service just because it's beginning where a much loved game left off.

I say, let us respect Marullus to run a great game in his own style, with rules he feels comfortable with and enjoy a whole new sandbox, fresh for us to dig around in.

At this point I won't be importing. A new start, and looking forward to it.
()==[:::::::::::::>
[]-Orrin Lighthammer, Dwarven Gymnast-[] The Arch-Duchy of Vaul: A West Marches Labyrinth Lord Sandbox
[]-Arnulf The Banal, Manchild SuperMage-[] The Lone City in the Wildlands (OSRIC)
[]-Nai Tnam, Dwarven Cleric-[] Lair of the Black Druid - OSRIC
[]-Bronn Arnulfsen, Half-Orc Fighter-[] Valnwall, The Barrowmaze (LL)
[]-<[RIP]>Eduard d'Arnise, Elven Fighter/Mage-[] The Lone City in the Wildlands (OSRIC)

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#66 Post by AleBelly »

+1. I think it's hard to DM a game for a long period of time. And though I laud you Marullus for seeking input, I think you should run the game you want to run - I like games that last a long time, and I think anyone's more likely to DM a long game if they follow their own vision instead of trying to be all things to all people. Just my two cents.

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#67 Post by onlyme »

Without knowing too much about the previous work, I would still agree with others that it would seem easier and more enjoyable to start fresh, with just the ideas and concepts carrying over. That way, you control the environment, with no worry that you are destroying a masterpiece.
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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#68 Post by Marullus »

Thank you all for your votes of confidence. :) This will indeed be a different world with a different story, though I'm am borrowing some aspects of Keehnelf's work (imitation being the most sincere form of flattery). We are all working through a grieving process with the end of Keehnelf's chronicle, including me. Once we get started, we quickly will establish a different feel and direction which I believe will stand on its own.

That said, I am willing to allow beloved concepts to transition from the old game and become part of the fabric of the new game. I see a few aspects to this, in order of increasing complexity:
  • Concept. This isn't an issue in any scenario - you can always make a new version of a familiar concept in any game.
  • Stats. Now that I've pre-emptively captured the stats of the active characters, there's little difference in allowing re-use of the old roll versus allowing new rolls (and re-rolls).
  • Background. Every character in the whole game will have an "I come from another land" background, as nobody is native to this new Northern Wastes area. I allow significant latitude in developing home cultures. There is little harm in having a group of characters say "we came from the same other land, which happens to be a previous chronicle." The characters are not in that land anymore and adjust to this new place, just as everyone else does. As long as everyone fuzzes the edges a bit, this can allow the continuation of a character, and even some continued relationships. We can just say "Vaul lost the war, characters went someplace new to try again" and it sums up the previous chronicle. Each PC decides why/how they ended up here, and clerics need to make a choice about pantheon.
  • Experience. This is the beginning of substantive divergence. Allowing PCs to keep their previous XP creates initially-disparate power level between characters. I was hesitant on this at first, but this disparity will occur readily soon enough through normal play, and nobody was high enough level for it to be an issue. It also rewards people who already committed as players to a long-term chronicle to invest anew in this as a long-term chronicle, which I'd like to encourage. I am willing to allow it, but if the consensus is "clean start" then we can dispense with this and have everyone on the same footing, which is also good.
  • Items. For me, items and locations are the key elements in revealing a new world. I'd rather keep them limited.
I understand and support the decision to make new characters, too. From what is posted you can already see a difference in flavor for the game. I am glad some are seeing new inspiration from that material for new characters. That is never a bad thing. If someone has an old concept, that's not a bad thing either.

I do also feel the plight of Zhym. He explained his play-style well up above - he starts with the barest of concepts and lets the world shape the character through experience into what that character will become. This is a great approach, but it becomes nearly impossible to separate the character concept from the world once the world has made its imprint. I am okay having Alt-Lug (I like the idea of "Gul" :) ), but I completely understand if it is more satisfying to play him as a reboot than a transfer. This applies to all characters - the goal is to make the most enjoyable start-point for the players.

To that end, I'll suggest this:
  • You have the option of making new PCs.
  • You have the option of making a "reskinned" PC with the same class, level, stats, HP, and XP and with similar or same alignment and name.
  • All PCs are unique creations of this world. Any similarity between the experiences of their background write-up and the previous campaign's play is at your discretion.
  • Relationships between PCs based on previous experience elsewhere just needs to be discussed and agreed between players.
  • All PCs re-roll starting coin and equipment. Heirloom item rules can be used to replicate favorite items normally, if applicable.
How does that sound?

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#69 Post by Zhym »

That sounds okay to me. The equipment part is still disappointing, but I'll get over it. I do wonder, however, if it just makes more sense to roll new PCs all around. I think it'll be more rewarding that way than to try to give old characters new life in a game that's not quite the same. I suppose that can be up to individual players, though.

I'd also suggest changing this:
Marullus wrote:We can just say "Vaul lost the war, characters went someplace new to try again" and it sums up the previous chronicle.
I wouldn't even reference Vaul. If this is a different universe, there's no need to reference what happened in the other one.

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#70 Post by Enoch »

I think I'm interested, too. I love the West Marches concept, and that campaign style allows for relatively simple drop-in/drop-out capability.
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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#71 Post by Marullus »

Glad to see the excitement!

I've updated the Character Creation rules:
viewtopic.php?f=353&t=5470&p=245702#p245702

Please take a final look and provide any last comments for discussion. If none, I'm okay opening for character creation and intial RP in town to get acquainted among the characters. Expeditions will still begin in Early May. If we're resolved, then I'll post a call for characters in a few days.

Please also do me the favor of asking for clarifications wherever needed in any of the rules so we can work out kinks you see before game-start. :)

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#72 Post by Zhym »

If anyone brings in a PC with 54 or fewer total attribute points, I'll be amazed. :)

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#73 Post by Marullus »

Good catch! I forgot to adjust that.

I've reset the thresholds to 70 and 62 instead of 66 and 54.

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#74 Post by Zhym »

Here's one more go at trying to let an alt-Lug have Smurfgrill: What do you think of letting transferred PCs trade PC XP for item XP?

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#75 Post by AleBelly »

Zhym wrote:If anyone brings in a PC with 54 or fewer total attribute points, I'll be amazed. :)
Not least because there's only about an 8% 12.1% chance of that happening. I actually rolled to the other side - 72 ability points, which is probably the best ever for me on 3d6 (also 8% 12.1% chance).
Last edited by AleBelly on Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#76 Post by Zhym »

Huh. Care to show your work on that math? ;)

I don't doubt you; I'm just wondering if there's a shortcut I've forgotten for calculating the combinations of 18d6.

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#77 Post by Marullus »

Zhym wrote:Here's one more go at trying to let an alt-Lug have Smurfgrill: What do you think of letting transferred PCs trade PC XP for item XP?
Dang... that is persistence. :)

First, you are okay with the creation of Alt-Lug, given he'd exist in a different world without the direct connections to the history and story that made him who he is? (the dryad and centaur who helped you get Smurfgrill are "somewhere in the south")

It is of foremost importance to me that you'd have a solid vision of Lug for the future, not just a longing for his past. You have the freedom to develop it - a new warrior based on the principle elements. I need confirmation that you're okay.

Second, we define the terms of what you're asking. You are asking to remove 2001xp from your character (which actually does not drop you a level, but sets you back significantly from achieving your next one). This then gives you a minor magic item with a single upgrade. In this case, we choose, "Missile weapons can use a strength bonus." That gives you a (mechanically slightly superior) version of Smurfgrill. The bow had restrictions placed upon it by its creators - you're free to incorporate alt-Lug's belief in those restrictions. (Whether they are true or not has never been known to your character. ;) ) Does that make sense?

I'll have to think about this overnight. Since we're making a new house rule for character importing, I'll also ask if anyone else has concerns about it.

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#78 Post by Zhym »

Well, no, I'm still not sure if I want to run alt-Lug. I'm just wondering what my options are.

FWIW, Keehnelf had set Smurfgrill as a 4002-xp item. Dropping Lug by that many XP would put him back to 2nd level, I think.

Harold would actually be an interesting one to find himself in a new plane of reality. He was a pretty devout follower of Branwyn. Is there room for more gods in this game than the three you described? If not, that would put Harold in an odd spot.

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#79 Post by AleBelly »

Zhym wrote:Huh. Care to show your work on that math? ;)

I don't doubt you; I'm just wondering if there's a shortcut I've forgotten for calculating the combinations of 18d6.
Actually, I was just coming back to correct myself. In checking my work I left a value in one of the Excel cells that affected the result. Replace "8%" with "12.1%."

I don't think there's a good shortcut, so my approach is to build a probability tree. It's pretty easy in Excel. You just have to tabulate the number of all possible rolls that could lead to a given value - you start low (4d6) and build from there using copy and paste. For instance, start with 3d6. Have a cell for each of the possible outcomes (3-18), and to the right of it the number of possible roll outcomes that could produce that number (obviously only one for 3 (1-1-1), but there are 3 possibilities for rolling of 4, 2-1-1, 1-2-1, 1-1-2). You can complete 4d6 by...ah, hell. I'm just going to send the file. You can figure it out...
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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#80 Post by Marullus »

Zhym wrote:FWIW, Keehnelf had set Smurfgrill as a 4002-xp item. Dropping Lug by that many XP would put him back to 2nd level, I think.
Yes, I've clarified the item rules here, to your benefit. For 4002, you could have the bow allow the strength bonus AND get a +1 of its own.
Zhym wrote:Harold would actually be an interesting one to find himself in a new plane of reality. He was a pretty devout follower of Branwyn. Is there room for more gods in this game than the three you described? If not, that would put Harold in an odd spot.
I'd recommend reskinning him as a pretty devout follower of Baudh (which combines aspects from Branwyn and Pelor). The key aspect of the Branwyn write-up is that he's the law-bringer and center of southern human civilization - Baudh has that role here. If there's another reason you want Branwyn instead, we'll work on the conversion. The Dieties page does explicitly allow you to make or import a new one, as soon as the tenets, restrictions, etc are defined and approved.

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