OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

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Marullus
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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#41 Post by Marullus »

True, and if it is going to feature in a Tribute, it has to have a way to be referenced. I am happy to reward good story and legend building. Are there further recommendations?

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#42 Post by Rusty Tincanne »

Hi all,
I joined Keehnelf's sandbox just before the world of Vaul crumbled, so sadly, I never actually was able to participate. But I really enjoyed reading through all your stories and look forward to joining in here.

I love the suggestions for character generation. I am very much a person that likes to build a character to an existing concept and low rolling stats has always been an issue for me. As a result, I like point-buy gaming systems. But between being able to place stats in whatever order a player likes and the house rule for family heirlooms, I am excited to just take whatever comes my way. :)

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#43 Post by Marullus »

Added a new idea - please provide feedback.

Each deity has an Order for its faithful -- those who have shown their mettle in the struggles of the world and dedicated themselves to the cause of that deity. The Order of Knights, common among nobility, require rites to Baudh. The Reapers of the Harvest, or Reapers, follow Gwanwen. The Poor Fellows of the Temple, or Templars, swear vows to Euranna. (See Deities.)

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#44 Post by Zorroroaster »

I dig it. I really like how it helps differentiate each of the deities and their sphere of influence. It will drive more PCs to be faithful, even if it's just the fickle desire for whatever benefit is conveyed by following one or the other deity.

I feel for the poor atheists, though. No soup for you! :lol:
()==[:::::::::::::>
[]-Orrin Lighthammer, Dwarven Gymnast-[] The Arch-Duchy of Vaul: A West Marches Labyrinth Lord Sandbox
[]-Arnulf The Banal, Manchild SuperMage-[] The Lone City in the Wildlands (OSRIC)
[]-Nai Tnam, Dwarven Cleric-[] Lair of the Black Druid - OSRIC
[]-Bronn Arnulfsen, Half-Orc Fighter-[] Valnwall, The Barrowmaze (LL)
[]-<[RIP]>Eduard d'Arnise, Elven Fighter/Mage-[] The Lone City in the Wildlands (OSRIC)

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#45 Post by Marullus »

Atheists have freedom of action, though. :)

I updated character creation to make the Family Heirloom piece official and also added a set of rules for importing characters. Please review and comment on that, too.

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#46 Post by Zhym »

I'm still on vacation, but have been able to read some of the updates here. It looks really interesting.

On importing: Am I reading correctly that we don't get to bring equipment with our pcs unless they get heirloom items due to low stats? Lug would have to be without Smurfgrill. :(

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#47 Post by Marullus »

That's the proposal for discussion, yes.

Lug could come in as a level 3 character and have a bow which he calls Smurfgrill and tells his tales about. When it gets 2001 item xp, it could choose "allow a strength bonus on a missile weapon" as an upgrade.

Or, you could make a new PC named Lug and, with a lower stat roll, begin the game with Smurfgrill at that status (but be level 1 with no character experience.)

I am offering to concede on characters, stats, xp, and levels, but need to find balance somewhere. Importing all items without Keehnelf's notes is far more difficult, and his items are far more linked to his setting. Our new setting differs necessarily, and it seems better to restart the items with the location.

Thoughts?

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#48 Post by Zhym »

Well, Lug really isn't Lug without Smurfgrill now, or Ulf without the armor he helped make, for that matter. Which is okay--I've been thinking of rolling up a new PC for the reasons I (and Zorroroaster) mentioned earlier.

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#49 Post by Zorroroaster »

Baloney. Orrin travelled with Lug for ages before he got that bow. He was Lug way back when they fought off all those spiders in the cave, he was Lug when Lars got torched, he was Lug when he was seduced by the tree chick. :lol:

And...perhaps this is my Alheimers, but I don't remember his being particularly effective with it in the first place. :lol:

I think Marullus is offering an elegant solution with the Heroic Items rule.

It does present an interesting conundrum. I wasn't that interested in bringing Orrin over, but I look at the stats and Marge qualifies for an heirloom item, so that's got me second guessing myself. :mrgreen:
()==[:::::::::::::>
[]-Orrin Lighthammer, Dwarven Gymnast-[] The Arch-Duchy of Vaul: A West Marches Labyrinth Lord Sandbox
[]-Arnulf The Banal, Manchild SuperMage-[] The Lone City in the Wildlands (OSRIC)
[]-Nai Tnam, Dwarven Cleric-[] Lair of the Black Druid - OSRIC
[]-Bronn Arnulfsen, Half-Orc Fighter-[] Valnwall, The Barrowmaze (LL)
[]-<[RIP]>Eduard d'Arnise, Elven Fighter/Mage-[] The Lone City in the Wildlands (OSRIC)

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#50 Post by Marullus »

Setting the threshold on the heirloom items is an interesting conversation, too.

I have stats on 25 characters from the end of the old game.
  • 64% of characters exceeded the items limit, with 67 or more points
  • 8% hug the threshhold (with exactly 66 points) to get an item
  • 28% fall in the 55 to 65 range (one unfortunate soul hugs the bottom limit at 55 points)
100% of characters in Keehnelf's game were ABOVE AVERAGE on 3d6 (where average would be 54 points).

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#51 Post by onlyme »

Hi folks...
I likewise begged unmercifully for inclusion into this game.
I cant really speak intelligently of the differences between 3 and 9 alignments, or even the whims of the deities. I love the idea of the heirloom item. I could certainly see how the family's +2 plunger could get us out of a crappy situation.

As for the dice rolls, Its the difference in 6 chickens or a half dozen eggs, imo. I mentioned in the generic RPG thread that my one concern with pure randomness with no exception would be that possibly if the PCs are greatly varied in terms of overall ability, that it could get difficult to keep all actively engaged. (either too easy or too difficult foes, or one PC or group is constantly doing the work while the others stand around mocking them.) The heirloom power certainly helps negate this.

All in all, I love the concepts.
Dandelion - female half-orc beautyqueen in training (The Lone City in the Wildlands) OSRIC
Halfpint - female halfling badgirl wannabe (Lab Lord- The North Marches) LL
Mark'd - charismatic human fighter (Lab Lord- The North Marches) LL


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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#52 Post by Zorroroaster »

Marullus wrote: 100% of characters in Keehnelf's game were ABOVE AVERAGE on 3d6 (where average would be 54 points).
Interesting.
()==[:::::::::::::>
[]-Orrin Lighthammer, Dwarven Gymnast-[] The Arch-Duchy of Vaul: A West Marches Labyrinth Lord Sandbox
[]-Arnulf The Banal, Manchild SuperMage-[] The Lone City in the Wildlands (OSRIC)
[]-Nai Tnam, Dwarven Cleric-[] Lair of the Black Druid - OSRIC
[]-Bronn Arnulfsen, Half-Orc Fighter-[] Valnwall, The Barrowmaze (LL)
[]-<[RIP]>Eduard d'Arnise, Elven Fighter/Mage-[] The Lone City in the Wildlands (OSRIC)

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#53 Post by Fulci »

I like the religious orders! It really expands the sacral horizons of the game. Usually all significantly religious characters are clerics (or paladins, etc), so basically "religion = class". But this way there are more shades to the palette. Religion ties into more easily into social standing as well.

By the way, when Marullus invited me to this game, the idea for my first character was a penitent / witch hunter type - now with the order of the Reapers, it's almost certain!
G A M E S :
Running Vaults & Wastelands [Fallout]
Isaiah Bartlett in That Which Should Not Be [CoC]
Ingrid Esthof in The Horror at Briarsgate [1e]
Jónas Gillman in The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh [1e]

I N A C T I V E : (
Ballar Uh in Dungeonesque [LL/AEC]
Favrick in The Rise of Smaug [BW]

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#54 Post by Zhym »

I said Lug isn't who he is *now* without the bow. Lug isn't his stats; he's the accumulation of adventures. The acquisition of Smurfgrill was a big one for Lug because of how he got it, what its strengths and limitations are, and the centaur's motives for imposing those limitations. I'd rather roll a new PC than rewind Lug to where he was before he got that bow.

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#55 Post by onlyme »

Maybe I am missing something (usually am), but how does the heirloom get picked, and who determines specific power?

Do we just come up with an idea for one, and PM the proposal to see if it works?
Dandelion - female half-orc beautyqueen in training (The Lone City in the Wildlands) OSRIC
Halfpint - female halfling badgirl wannabe (Lab Lord- The North Marches) LL
Mark'd - charismatic human fighter (Lab Lord- The North Marches) LL


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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#56 Post by Fulci »

Heirlooms are given as compensation for low stats.

It was detailed on the previous page:
Marullus wrote:So, here's a proposal. We already have a curious and potent house-rule from Keehnelf in the existence of Heroic Items. The fact that magical items naturally occur in the world based on the potent imprint of the souls of their users has several implications for our game and the ubiquitousness of magical occurrence. Low-level magical characteristics now manifest on normal items, and thus occur in the wider population. This is a major shift from them being the intentional works of high-level magic users and only found in the hands of those with a minimal degree of separation from that source. It is possible to have a low-level hero in any town, in any family, who's deeds have catalyzed on a key artifact, or to have a traumatic death which results in a lasting manifestation. Such items would clearly be valued family heirlooms, and likely pass as aid to those venturing forth from the family who need them.

  • Create your character in the Unseen Servant die roller: http://www.unseenservant.com/
  • On the Characters tab, choose Create a New Character. Name your PC, and put in Campaign ID number 417.
  • Next to your character's name, click the big gold die under the "Roll Stats" button. Roll using the 3d6 method. Assign the stats in the order of your choice. There is no point-buy option. Click "Aye." (Players are encouraged to use the initial roll, and rewarded if they accept a low result (see below). Players are permitted to re-roll by clicking "Nay" if there is a specific concept desired. Remember, no roll is perfect and flaws are fun to play, too. Pick a set and move forward.)
  • Once the roll is accepted, add up all six attributes. It the total is higher than 66, proceed as is. If the total is between 54 and 66, one of your starting equipment items is a family heirloom with 2001xp. If the total is below 54, you have 4002xp on one heirloom or 2001xp each on two heirloom items. See the Family Heirloom rules for details. Alternately, Magic users may also use this to begin with a larger spell book, spending 2001xp for another initial first level spell or 4001xp for a second level spell.


Family Heirloom rules:
These rules are governed by the Heroic Items house rules and apply to starting equipment for certain new characters. Someone in your family or hometown was once known for heroic deeds, and/or experienced a horrible and traumatic demise. These experiences leave a lasting, semi-magical impression on the physical objects involved and sometimes are strong enough to manifest as tangible magical abilities. For each heirloom item, follow the Heroic Items rules to determine an appropriate effect. Then write up a brief description of the person who's actions manifested this effect, the circumstances of those actions, and how the item came into your character's possession.

Examples:
  • A large-knobbed wooden cane (club +1). Great grandfather Bullroarer Took led the defense of Hobbiton from goblins, smiting the head of the goblin chieftain clean-off with a blow from his favorite walking stick. He told the tale religiously, continuing to carry the cane for the rest of his life. The cane was passed down and entrusted to me when I ventured forth to find my fortune. 2001xp.
  • Mother's lamp. Growing up in the ruins of a drafty castle, we dared too far. My brother was taken in his sleep by the touch of a ghost, driving my mother to grief and despair. Every night she placed the lamp by my bed and prayed over it, not daring to leave until the morning light lest she lose another child. Eventually, her grief overcame her and she died, lamp still in-hand, leaving me an orphan forced to go out into the world. The lamp is all I have to remember her by. Effects: For 2001xp, the lamp lasts the night, never running out of oil until extinguished. (It must be refilled before being relit again normally.) For 4001xp, it also functions as Protection from Evil spell while held.

G A M E S :
Running Vaults & Wastelands [Fallout]
Isaiah Bartlett in That Which Should Not Be [CoC]
Ingrid Esthof in The Horror at Briarsgate [1e]
Jónas Gillman in The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh [1e]

I N A C T I V E : (
Ballar Uh in Dungeonesque [LL/AEC]
Favrick in The Rise of Smaug [BW]

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#57 Post by Zorroroaster »

Zhym wrote:I said Lug isn't who he is *now* without the bow. Lug isn't his stats; he's the accumulation of adventures. The acquisition of Smurfgrill was a big one for Lug because of how he got it, what its strengths and limitations are, and the centaur's motives for imposing those limitations. I'd rather roll a new PC than rewind Lug to where he was before he got that bow.
I dunno, bro...playing a rewound version of the big galoot versus never ever ever ever playing him again? :lol: take the rewind.
()==[:::::::::::::>
[]-Orrin Lighthammer, Dwarven Gymnast-[] The Arch-Duchy of Vaul: A West Marches Labyrinth Lord Sandbox
[]-Arnulf The Banal, Manchild SuperMage-[] The Lone City in the Wildlands (OSRIC)
[]-Nai Tnam, Dwarven Cleric-[] Lair of the Black Druid - OSRIC
[]-Bronn Arnulfsen, Half-Orc Fighter-[] Valnwall, The Barrowmaze (LL)
[]-<[RIP]>Eduard d'Arnise, Elven Fighter/Mage-[] The Lone City in the Wildlands (OSRIC)

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#58 Post by AleBelly »

Zorroroaster wrote:
Marullus wrote: 100% of characters in Keehnelf's game were ABOVE AVERAGE on 3d6 (where average would be 54 points).
Interesting.
Actually, the average of a 3d6 chargen method would be higher than that. There are 6 possible rolls (1 through 6) on a d6, which sum up to 21. Divide this by 6 (the number of faces on the die) and you get 3.5, so 3.5 is the average value per roll. Multiply 3.5 by three rolls and you get 10.5, which is the average attribute score if rolled 3d6. Multiply by 6 attributes and you get 63...so that would actually be the expected average.

There's also some bias in that the weaker characters would probably die at a greater rate than stronger characters. In fact, my old pal Crivit had a sum score of 61. Damned ghouls. Varas had a 62, so both of these characters were pretty close to what one would expect.

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Marullus
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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#59 Post by Marullus »

Zhym wrote:I said Lug isn't who he is *now* without the bow. Lug isn't his stats; he's the accumulation of adventures. The acquisition of Smurfgrill was a big one for Lug because of how he got it, what its strengths and limitations are, and the centaur's motives for imposing those limitations. I'd rather roll a new PC than rewind Lug to where he was before he got that bow.
Thanks, Zhym, this is precisely what I hoped to get out of this discussion. The key question in how I allow imported characters centers around what does it mean to "be" the character? Originally I suggested keeping the story but rolling new stats, but it was emphasized that the stats were needed. Then I proposed keeping the stats but making it an "alternate reality" which fuzzes the story. I wanted to get down to the answer, and I think we're closer.

I'm okay with keeping the stats, I will compromise to keep the accumulated experience, but I don't have the means to keep the world in place. If being Lug means having the centaur grove, the dryad tree, the conversations that led to the bow, and the impact the bow had on him, that is much more complicated.

On the up-side, the solution to THAT problem does not lie in keeping the bow. It lies in keeping the history by which Lug created the bow, and by which the bow changed him as a person. What if the solution were to modify the story? Instead of this being alternate-world Lug, what if we used a deus ex machina device to literally import the characters, kinda like Sliders?

"The battle for Vaul was failing, the walls about to be overrun by hobgoblins. Just as hope was about to break into despair, a great roaring of wind was heard. Vaul stood on the roof of his keep and a dimensional rift sundered the air above the town, sucking people upward right off the ground. The next thing you knew, you were lying naked as a jaybird in the middle of a different town, in a different land, with different Gods." All character memories are just as they were, but they are fully aware that they are now in a different reality (and still without items). We make it part of the plotline. How will the PCs adjust to the weird transfer? How will the followers of the new gods react to these people literally dropping in from another plane?

Is that preferable? What do other players think?

Now, there's also nothing wrong with making a new PC for the new world and everyone can make that choice. But, I'd like us to come to a point where the option of importing is a satisfying and appropriate option for all who might do so, too.

onlyme wrote:Maybe I am missing something (usually am), but how does the heirloom get picked, and who determines specific power?

Do we just come up with an idea for one, and PM the proposal to see if it works?
Yes, precisely that. I would like the player to propose the item, the reason it exists, and the reason they have it, as part of their character submission.

(The version of the rules in the Character Creation thread is also adjusted from the initial proposal above. Read that one instead.)
AleBelly wrote:Actually, the average of a 3d6 chargen method would be higher than that. There are 6 possible rolls (1 through 6) on a d6, which sum up to 21. Divide this by 6 (the number of faces on the die) and you get 3.5, so 3.5 is the average value per roll. Multiply 3.5 by three rolls and you get 10.5, which is the average attribute score if rolled 3d6. Multiply by 6 attributes and you get 63...so that would actually be the expected average.
Ahhh... thanks. Yes, the minimum value is 3, not 0, which does shift the average. The question, then, is - do we shift the breakpoints for the heirloom items?

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Re: OOC Chatter - Pre-Launch Discussion

#60 Post by KingOfCowards »

Marullus wrote:
AleBelly wrote:Actually, the average of a 3d6 chargen method would be higher than that. There are 6 possible rolls (1 through 6) on a d6, which sum up to 21. Divide this by 6 (the number of faces on the die) and you get 3.5, so 3.5 is the average value per roll. Multiply 3.5 by three rolls and you get 10.5, which is the average attribute score if rolled 3d6. Multiply by 6 attributes and you get 63...so that would actually be the expected average.
Ahhh... thanks. Yes, the minimum value is 3, not 0, which does shift the average. The question, then, is - do we shift the breakpoints for the heirloom items?
I was posting the same thing, but Alebelly beat me to it. As for the breakpoints, the upper limit seems okay to me for a tier-1 heirloom. Maybe raise the upper limit for a 2 tier item. Rhodri was probably the worst character I remember seeing (stat-wise) and if he didn't qualify, I don't know who would.

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