How Much is Enough?

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dmw71
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How Much is Enough?

#1 Post by dmw71 »

I've never been a very creative writer, which can obviously be detrimental to the players in a play-by-post game you're DMing (and almost begs the question, should you be DMing in the first place?).

Anyway, a discussion began in my game on the subject of firing missiles into melee, and how to know if it's safe. (If you're interested, the discussion can be found here:
viewtopic.php?p=153205#p153205).

If you take a step back from the specific question of ranged combat and think in terms of general descriptions in a game, what is the minimum amount of detail a player needs to adequately assess a situation and not be left wondering about some detail?

If you're a player, what are your thoughts?

If you're a DM, do you have any suggestions on how to know when you're providing enough detail?


I posed the following questions to my group, but wanted to open it up to the US population as a whole as I think the discussion could improve the quality of games on the board (at least the ones I'm running).
AleBelly wrote:It depends how much information the DM provides.
I fell asleep thinking about this last night (in fact, my previous post from this morning was actually composed last night; I actually dozed off proof reading it and found it unsubmitted this morning).

I think this is a great comment.

Providing thorough and detailed updates is one of the primary responsibilities of a DM, and I accept that it's something I struggle with. That is the reason for this follow up response:

I've been jotting down some notes on my own, but I want to open the question up for a wider audience (and may post the question in one of the main forums for even more perspectives), but:

What are the most important or essential details a player needs from a DM in every update?

It wasn't until I actually forced myself to think about it that I realized I routinely omit some of the "who, what, when, where, why, how" questions. I'd like to think that the "who" and "how" are adequately addressed in my updates (maybe not?), but what's missing?

It will obviously vary by situation, but, for now, let's focus on a combat situation.

Apparently, just providing numbers of opponents and what they're doing isn't enough. Knowing approximate positioning and distances needs to be communicated as well.

What else?

I'm thinking, given the unique online environment we're playing in, composing a list of details for the DM to provide (or at least consider) to accurately paint a picture for the players would be a great resource.

What specific questions would you like to have answered by a DM, every time?

What specific details, if initially provided would cut down on the number of questions you have when trying to respond for your character?


I tend to be very systems oriented and like to establish and follow routines. If I had a checklist of criteria to follow when composing my updates, it would only benefit the game as a whole.

I'd appreciate any feedback you're willing to provide, so thanks in advance.
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Re: How Much is Enough?

#2 Post by Keehnelf »

I have no idea how outside the norm I am, or even how much or how little my players appreciate my specific approach (I don't care about their opinions, hah!)

But, here it is:

In combat situations, I try to go opponent by opponent and provide not only their current actions but also their positioning relevant to any action they are performing or which might be relevant to actions performed against them. This means that sometimes my combats turn into clusters of action that exist somewhat in isolation from one another.


e.g., two spiders are attacking a pair of adventurers while nearby two more adventurers are fighting a third. The relative positioning of these two events is completely irrelevant to my combat until something happens to cause the lines between them to blur. Then, I try to provide information that contextualizes that. Usually this is prompted by a question: adventurer C (fighting the solitary spider) asks, "Can I reach adventurer A this round to provide healing?" and that is a spur to me to add more detail.

Otherwise, I basically illuminate an area about ten feet around any important actor and then leave the rest fuzzy until it needs to be more precisely detailed. I've got the scene in my head the whole time, but I operate from three basic assumptions that have led me to this approach:

1. If I describe everything that might potentially be relevant, I will go insane.
2. The players will tell me when something is important, by asking questions about it.
3. Combat is messy and confusing and until someone is specifically paying attention to something, it makes sense that it would be a blur.

That also leads me to perceptions of things happening elsewhere in the combat that no PC sees or is paying attention to in very nebulous terms--if they want to turn their attention that way and figure out what is happening, that's awesome, but if they don't that's also ok. Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad. Who knows until you check (or it kills you)?

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Re: How Much is Enough?

#3 Post by dmw71 »

Keehnelf wrote:In combat situations, I try to go opponent by opponent and provide not only their current actions but also their positioning relevant to any action they are performing or which might be relevant to actions performed against them. This means that sometimes my combats turn into clusters of action that exist somewhat in isolation from one another.
This makes perfect sense. I appreciate the feedback, man.

I'm definitely going to re-read you post, paying closer attention, once I'm not at work reading from my phone.

Do you provide maps for your players?

I was, but only sparingly, and I think the lack of visual reference was contributing to the confusion in my game.

I've used Google Drive spreadsheets with some success in the past, and decided to try and create one for the current encounter my players find themselves in (attached). Hopefully it will help, but I do want to start paying closer attention to my updates to make sure I'm providing adequate details as well.

I'm going to have to check out one of your games to see actual examples of how you update your combats.

Thanks, again.
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Re: How Much is Enough?

#4 Post by Keehnelf »

I never provide combat maps. They always work against the flow of combat in the end, for me.

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Re: How Much is Enough?

#5 Post by Keehnelf »

And as I say, my approach may be a bad one--I'll have to ask some of my players to chime in on whether they feel lost in combat or not.

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Re: How Much is Enough?

#6 Post by AleBelly »

The only good or bad approach is one that's ineffective. DM's should play to their strengths and address weaknesses. I always include maps because my descriptions aren't very good - too verbose and I often don't paint a full picture. Others don't need them. IMHO

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Re: How Much is Enough?

#7 Post by GreyWolfVT »

like you Alebelly I generally try to post a battle map other than that i don't generally use maps overly so. Unless it is the only good way to fill in where my descriptions lack.
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Re: How Much is Enough?

#8 Post by dmw71 »

Keehnelf wrote:And as I say, my approach may be a bad one--I'll have to ask some of my players to chime in on whether they feel lost in combat or not.
Your 'Labyrinth Lord West Marches Sandbox' game seems to be insanely popular, so I'd say you're doing something right. ;)
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Re: How Much is Enough?

#9 Post by Keehnelf »

That's because I slip crack cocaine into the character generator. Has nothing to do with the quality of the game.

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Re: How Much is Enough?

#10 Post by Keehnelf »

A couple of combats in the style that I use, for easy reference.

One begins here: viewtopic.php?f=167&t=3578&start=320#p149328

Another: viewtopic.php?f=167&t=3403&start=40#p135588

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Re: How Much is Enough?

#11 Post by dmw71 »

Keehnelf wrote:A couple of combats in the style that I use, for easy reference.
Those links will be a big help. Thanks!
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Re: How Much is Enough?

#12 Post by hammerHead »

Good information, in my mind, fulfils two purposes: it is suggestive of a broader context instead of over-describing it, and it is conductive to its purpose – some of which serves to evoke a certain mental image, but more often to encourage action - Gabor Lux

Lux's is one of the better single sentenced on this subject.
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Re: How Much is Enough?

#13 Post by dmw71 »

hammerHead wrote:Good information, in my mind, fulfils two purposes: it is suggestive of a broader context instead of over-describing it, and it is conductive to its purpose – some of which serves to evoke a certain mental image, but more often to encourage action - Gabor Lux

Lux's is one of the better single sentenced on this subject.
Great quote.

Since raising the question initially I've started using Roll20 for maps, which really helps. Having the tokens for monsters and the players is obvious, but it's also nice to be able to add other details (e.g. chest, statue, footprints, etc...) that the players can see, without the DM needing to expressly detail them in their updates.
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Re: How Much is Enough?

#14 Post by Norjax »

I am still learning and trying to improve my PbP DM/GM skills from other Masters. I’m not sure if an orderly checklist would work for every encounter, but I am willing to give it a try.

Keehnelf’s brings up some good points:
Keehnelf wrote: 1. If I describe everything that might potentially be relevant, I will go insane.
2. The players will tell me when something is important, by asking questions about it.
3. Combat is messy and confusing and until someone is specifically paying attention to something, it makes sense that it would be a blur.
1. I use maps and visuals to avoid the “wall of text” descriptions. I’m a better artist then writer, so I play to my strengths.

2. The players have a responsibility to ask for specifics. They control the perceptions of their characters beyond the obvious. This rolls into #3.

3. Some details cannot be discerned during chaos of battle. Each round is mere seconds and I find it unrealistic that every sensory detail can be interpreted by a character while dealing with conflict. A little “fuzziness” is realistic. I’ve often ended an encounter with “Now that the fighting is over, you notice…”

If a player states that their character is “looking”, “investigating”, etc. I will reveal another layer of detail beyond the initial scan of an environment.

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Re: How Much is Enough?

#15 Post by dmw71 »

Norjax wrote:2. The players have a responsibility to ask for specifics. They control the perceptions of their characters beyond the obvious. This rolls into #3.

3. Some details cannot be discerned during chaos of battle. Each round is mere seconds and I find it unrealistic that every sensory detail can be interpreted by a character while dealing with conflict. A little “fuzziness” is realistic. I’ve often ended an encounter with “Now that the fighting is over, you notice…”

If a player states that their character is “looking”, “investigating”, etc. I will reveal another layer of detail beyond the initial scan of an environment.
I can see this working well.
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Re: How Much is Enough?

#16 Post by Zhym »

I think I end up over-detailing things sometimes and under-detailing them at others. I have on more than one occasion put a detail in an update that is meant to be a clue for the attentive player. And I have a feeling that my games tend to be more enjoyable for people that don't mind reading. But I do try to avoid using the Wall of Text spell.

But in combats, I quickly run out of ways to say "A attacks B, the attack hits/misses." I've seen some DMs on here who do a great job of filling in that sort of color. It's a real art form, and trying to do it myself gives me an appreciation for those who do it well.

I've fallen away from battle maps, mostly because they're a PITA to keep updated. But I do like how not mapping a battle simulates the "fog of battle."

Also: I miss having Keehnelf on here. :/

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Re: How Much is Enough?

#17 Post by Norjax »

Zhym wrote:...But I do try to avoid using the Wall of Text spell.

LOL!
I've fallen away from battle maps, mostly because they're a PITA to keep updated. But I do like how not mapping a battle simulates the "fog of battle."
I agree that they can be a PITA, but I don't know if I could keep track of everything (as a GM) without this aid.

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