Alignment, how do you interpret it?

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Bhart
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Alignment, how do you interpret it?

#1 Post by Bhart »

While creating a character recently I had to consider what a lawful alignment really meant. I thought that this would be a good place to have this discussion.

So my question is ... Can a thief be lawful?

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Re: Alignment, how do you interpret it?

#2 Post by Vargr1105 »

Absolutely.

Lawyers, bureaucrats, judges, politicians and cops are among the biggest thieves in existence and most of them are Lawful.

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Re: Alignment, how do you interpret it?

#3 Post by rredmond »

I would say yes. I've heard great arguments that James Bond, who as a spy was really a thief-type character, or a multi-class thief character, was Lawful Neutral at best, with dips into Lawful Evil at times. :)

In the D&D mechanic this is (in the games I played) made clear with the fact that they can be any neutral and any evil.

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Re: Alignment, how do you interpret it?

#4 Post by onlyme »

Bhart wrote:While creating a character recently I had to consider what a lawful alignment really meant. I thought that this would be a good place to have this discussion.

So my question is ... Can a thief be lawful?

Absolutely, as others have said. I look at it as whether the character has a moral code, regardless of good/bad, and faces guilt (by others and/or self) if broken. Robin Hood was LN, in my opinion. He wasnt LG, as he purposefully broke laws he felt were unjust. But, he didnt break his own personal set of rules, ie by robbing from the poor, etc.
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Re: Alignment, how do you interpret it?

#5 Post by rredmond »

onlyme wrote:Absolutely, as others have said. I look at it as whether the character has a moral code, regardless of good/bad, and faces guilt (by others and/or self) if broken. Robin Hood was LN, in my opinion. He wasnt LG, as he purposefully broke laws he felt were unjust. But, he didnt break his own personal set of rules, ie by robbing from the poor, etc.
Oooo, that's interesting. We may have to start another thread, but I always saw Robin Hood as a Chaotic Good kinda guy. Fightin' the man and hating injustice!
But I can completely see where you are coming from.
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Re: Alignment, how do you interpret it?

#6 Post by Vargr1105 »

rredmond wrote:
onlyme wrote:Absolutely, as others have said. I look at it as whether the character has a moral code, regardless of good/bad, and faces guilt (by others and/or self) if broken. Robin Hood was LN, in my opinion. He wasnt LG, as he purposefully broke laws he felt were unjust. But, he didnt break his own personal set of rules, ie by robbing from the poor, etc.
Oooo, that's interesting. We may have to start another thread, but I always saw Robin Hood as a Chaotic Good kinda guy. Fightin' the man and hating injustice!
But I can completely see where you are coming from.
Well, it should be pointed out that any Lawful or any Good alignment implies a code of honor, whether it be of personal or societal origin. Folks forget that being "Good" isn't about being an all-round nice guy, it is about pro-actively being good, this means a personal moral and ethical code. Most of us are not Good, we aren't out there helping flood victims or attempting to better society or our community with selfless service.

And do not forget tendencies and balance. Robin Hood could be LG with a slant towards Goodness, or LN with Good tendencies. I do not think he can be classified as CG. Robin is not an anti-authoritarian individualist. He is of noble birth and is ultimately fighting very pro-actively for the return of King Richard Lionheart and the restoration of lawful authority on the land. The reason he breaks the laws of King John with impunity and sleeps like a baby is that he is an usurper that does not hold legitimate political authority, therefore there is nothing Lawful about obeying him.

Historical North American politics summed this up quite nicely:

"When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty."

"Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."

rredmond wrote:I would say yes. I've heard great arguments that James Bond, who as a spy was really a thief-type character, or a multi-class thief character, was Lawful Neutral at best, with dips into Lawful Evil at times. :)
James Bond is a borderline mental case. :)

I would say he is Lawful Neutral, he works for the State after all and definitively has a code of conduct and a set of rules he should abide by, but he has a bunch of tendencies: Good towards women and the innocent; Chaotic towards winning, even to the point of going against his superiors when the orders "get in the way" and Evil in extreme circumstances when dealing with his enemies.

James Bond spends so much time fighting really evil monsters he occasionally dips into Evil himself, but so far he has not crossed the Moral Event Horizon.

I think Nitzsche wrote a thing or two about these matters. Something about an abyss...

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Re: Alignment, how do you interpret it?

#7 Post by onlyme »

Vargr1105 wrote:... Robin Hood could be LG with a slant towards Goodness, or LN with Good tendencies. I do not think he can be classified as CG. Robin is not an anti-authoritarian individualist. He is of noble birth and is ultimately fighting very pro-actively for the return of King Richard Lionheart and the restoration of lawful authority on the land. The reason he breaks the laws of King John with impunity and sleeps like a baby is that he is an usurper that does not hold legitimate political authority, therefore there is nothing Lawful about obeying him....
I couldnt pull the trigger on LG. If he only stole from the "gov't" or hunted on the king's land, then ok. But, by taking from private citizens, he crosses that line with me, to neutral. Those laws would have been the same regardless of rightful king.
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Re: Alignment, how do you interpret it?

#8 Post by Bhart »

rredmond wrote:I would say yes. I've heard great arguments that James Bond, who as a spy was really a thief-type character, or a multi-class thief character, was Lawful Neutral at best, with dips into Lawful Evil at times. :)

In the D&D mechanic this is (in the games I played) made clear with the fact that they can be any neutral and any evil.

Always fun!
Very good example. I'd have to agree with that.

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Re: Alignment, how do you interpret it?

#9 Post by Bhart »

onlyme wrote:
Vargr1105 wrote:... Robin Hood could be LG with a slant towards Goodness, or LN with Good tendencies. I do not think he can be classified as CG. Robin is not an anti-authoritarian individualist. He is of noble birth and is ultimately fighting very pro-actively for the return of King Richard Lionheart and the restoration of lawful authority on the land. The reason he breaks the laws of King John with impunity and sleeps like a baby is that he is an usurper that does not hold legitimate political authority, therefore there is nothing Lawful about obeying him....
I couldnt pull the trigger on LG. If he only stole from the "gov't" or hunted on the king's land, then ok. But, by taking from private citizens, he crosses that line with me, to neutral. Those laws would have been the same regardless of rightful king.
That's a strong argument. Your reasoning for him not being Lawful Good brings up an interesting point on how we define "lawfulness". For many it includes obedience to the law of the land. The idea is if they break a law they cannot be lawful.

I'd argue that they only follow the law of the land because they recognize the authority of its ruler. Lawful people do not follow laws just because they are laws. They follow them because they feel some duty, devotion, etc. to the authority that imposes them. So for me Lawful is relative.

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Re: Alignment, how do you interpret it?

#10 Post by Alethan »

Bhart wrote:So for me Lawful is relative.
Indeed, if Lawful was not relative, we wouldn't have such need for lawyers!

(Of course, I still think we don't have much need for lawyers...)
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Re: Alignment, how do you interpret it?

#11 Post by Vargr1105 »

onlyme wrote:
Vargr1105 wrote:... Robin Hood could be LG with a slant towards Goodness, or LN with Good tendencies. I do not think he can be classified as CG. Robin is not an anti-authoritarian individualist. He is of noble birth and is ultimately fighting very pro-actively for the return of King Richard Lionheart and the restoration of lawful authority on the land. The reason he breaks the laws of King John with impunity and sleeps like a baby is that he is an usurper that does not hold legitimate political authority, therefore there is nothing Lawful about obeying him....
I couldnt pull the trigger on LG. If he only stole from the "gov't" or hunted on the king's land, then ok. But, by taking from private citizens, he crosses that line with me, to neutral. Those laws would have been the same regardless of rightful king.
The "private citizens" he steals from are nobles and corrupt clergy who are part and parcel of the unlawful regime of King John, and merchants which are its supporters, or at least neutral towards it. Again, there nothing un-lawful about expropriating traitors, or those that fail to contribute to the return of the legitimate authority even while profiting and getting fat from the status quo set up by the usurper.

Furthermore, Robin of Loxley being a nobleman and true to his oaths to the rightful king is lawfully empowered to do all those things. And once King Richard returns there is going to be a very, very lawful "night of the long knives". Axe will be swung, heads will roll and hanging ropes will hang taut from trees, unless King Richard decides to declare a general amnesty.

Robin does not steal to buy bling or maintain a lifestyle, but to support his insurgency and gain popular support to the cause by redistribution of wealth among the populace. And none of his victims are reduced to penury or starvation due to the expropriations, so no innocent kids going to bed hungry because Robin's partisans need new longbows. Sure, the fat merchant's wife may have to do without that new pearl necklace, which he wouldn't have been able to afford in the first place if he didn't enjoy a mercantile monopoly now that all the competing merchants that were loyal to King Richard are either imprisoned, exiled or dead.

Robin Hood is a crash course in Lawful Insurgency 101. And he is very good at it.

Bhart wrote:That's a strong argument. Your reasoning for him not being Lawful Good brings up an interesting point on how we define "lawfulness". For many it includes obedience to the law of the land. The idea is if they break a law they cannot be lawful.


Actually, we are grasping at straws if we fail to define what "Law" is in the first place. The current definition of a Law is something like: an opinion with is backed up by force, or coercion trough the threat of use of force; and is perceived by a sizable majority as being legitimate either through consent, indoctrination, brainwashing or outright despairing acceptance due to oppression.

It gets even more complicated when we consider the vast array of different entities promulgating contradictory laws. And "whose" law are we talking about? Personal law? Natural law? God's law? Political law? What is illegal on this this side of the border is perfectly legal on the other...ok, which one is right and lawful?

When Robin and his men attack King John's guards they are breaking the laws of King John, but by fighting traitors they are obeying King Richard's Law. So they are being Lawful and Chaotic at the same time? This is a paradox. Certainly no definition of "Lawful" in AD&D can be so universal as to ignore personal interpretations, otherwise the whole system crumbles down.

Bhart wrote:I'd argue that they only follow the law of the land because they recognize the authority of its ruler.


Bingo. Government is the Monopoly on Violence which is perceived (for whatever reason) as legitimate. Robin Hood is fighting for the previous monopoly on violence which is legitimate in his eyes, while King John's henchmen are fighting for the new one which is legitimate in theirs.
Bhart wrote:Lawful people do not follow laws just because they are laws.
Not unless they are Lawful Stupid, which is sadly what many nice folks and GM seem to assume they would be.
Bhart wrote:They follow them because they feel some duty, devotion, etc. to the authority that imposes them. So for me Lawful is relative.
Bingo again Bhart. At last someone that agrees with me on the non-universal nature of Lawfulness in AD&D terms. :)
Alethan wrote:
Bhart wrote:So for me Lawful is relative.
Indeed, if Lawful was not relative, we wouldn't have such need for lawyers!

(Of course, I still think we don't have much need for lawyers...)
I would go further. I would say there is no place for any lawyers (and judges especially) or professional politicians whatsoever in a free civilized society. Once they become extinct, the Universe will be one step closer to achieving harmony, and all the more beautiful for their demise. I say bring in the ropes and hang'em high...all of them. :D


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Re: Alignment, how do you interpret it?

#12 Post by Bhart »

Ok next question...
Can a chaotic character, being anti-authoritarian , be dedicated to something bigger than himself ? For example, a religion or deity.

When I first pondered this I wondered why all clerics were not lawful. Chaotic people reject authority's control over the individual, so how can a chaotic cleric be a willing and obedient servant of a powerful authority figure?

I suppose they could be reluctant and driven by fear.

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Re: Alignment, how do you interpret it?

#13 Post by Alethan »

I can believe in God and then I can also believe in the corruption of organized religions.

I figure it would be something like that.
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Re: Alignment, how do you interpret it?

#14 Post by rredmond »

Bhart wrote:I suppose they could be reluctant and driven by fear.
This I think. It seems to play a part of the gods of chaos in the Melnibonéan and Cthulhu pantheons.

I believe in following my god to spread chaos in any way shape or form. I'm pretty likely to stray from my gods teachings because of my nature, and will (not always - because of my god's nature) be punished for it.

The thing I wonder about is why a god of chaos would bother to give their clerics those all important spells above 3rd level. I guess for the same reason the spread of chaos. The ultimate goal of chaos being the destruction of everything (CE) or the destruction of all law (CG) or "who cares" (CN) :) .
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Re: Alignment, how do you interpret it?

#15 Post by Vargr1105 »

Bhart wrote:Ok next question...
Can a chaotic character, being anti-authoritarian , be dedicated to something bigger than himself ? For example, a religion or deity.


A chaotic is not necessarily an "anti-authoritarian". He will be an Individualist, at least in what pertains to himself, but he could well be an oppressor or a tyrant towards others.

As for chaotics being dedicated to something bigger than themselves, of course. The real world provides ample examples of such people. Most terrorists are like this, spreading chaos and destruction in the name of a higher goal that transcends their own individuality.

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Re: Alignment, how do you interpret it?

#16 Post by max_vale »

I know that many people have very, very different interpretations of alignments. I tend to find the Evil-Neutral-Good axis a little easier to 'define' than the Law-Chaos one; but here's my 2 cents....


I find "Lawful" characters to be characters who believe in following a code of some kind (or at least attempting to do so); with the Belief that by doing do; they are keeping things from falling out of "control". This code is typically; though not necessarily; established somewhere (A religious text; the Laws of a King or wise Academic; the 'unwritten Laws' of a Thieves Guild; etc.); and the character will do thier best to adhere to it....in the belief that the laws are more important than thier individual feelings.

LG characters follow these laws as they belief in benefits the most people in a "good" way. LN characters follow these rules as to do otherwise invites anarchy and unrest and this is not desirable for 'civilized' life. LE characters follow a code as a means to advance themselves within an established framework (i.e. organized crime figures; iron-fisted tyrants; etc.)

Chaotics; as someone else mentioned allready; I see as primarily concerned with thier individual views on life.....they are not necessarily "anti authority" figures; but they will NOT follow any law they see as 'unfair' simply because it is the law. I can certainly see them following Gods; or "Causes" greater than themselves......they just have a hard time doing so in any kind of "rigid" structure. I see many Rebel Leaders (Good, Evil or Neutral) as being Chaotics.....after the Rebellion is over....even if they succeed; they have a hard time dealing with the aftermath.......the "clean up" after the 'cause' succeeded.

As for the Robin Hood example; I always saw Robin as NG. He acted because the common people were being hurt.....he didn't care that the unjust taxes and laws were being given by a "Lawful" (or not....see King Richard's return) King; and at the same time; I think he would have acted the same if King Richard returned and did the same thing that King John had done. He was happy to follow a "Good" King; but acted against an "Evil" one. Just my two cents....

*Note: As a lover of History; and the Crusades period in particular; I have always found it hysterical that King Richard has long been held up as some kind of heroic English King. Fact: Allthough he was born in England; he was Norman (French) on both sides; he spoke French (both the Northern and Southern versions) predominately; spent virtually all of his life battling in France (or the Holy Land); spent 10 years as a King of England....and less than a year of theat was spent in England; and taxed his citizens to finance the 3rd Crusade and subsequent war with Phillip Augustus of France FAR more than King John ever did.

On the positive side....he was a Gutsy as hell Ruler who was Never afraid to lead from the front in battle.

I think King John is remembered so poorly because he was a very high-strung man who ticked off one too many nobles and eventually was forced to cede much of his power at the Magna Carta.....a "divine ruler" brought low by his Vassals....and therefore fit to be made the bad guy forever-more.

ALMOST enough to make you feel sorry for the bastard! :)

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Re: Alignment, how do you interpret it?

#17 Post by Spiderdown »

Bhart wrote:Ok next question...
Can a chaotic character, being anti-authoritarian , be dedicated to something bigger than himself ? For example, a religion or deity.

When I first pondered this I wondered why all clerics were not lawful. Chaotic people reject authority's control over the individual, so how can a chaotic cleric be a willing and obedient servant of a powerful authority figure?

I suppose they could be reluctant and driven by fear.
C'mon, this is an awesome question!

If you're a priest of Scronk the god of Respiratory Diseases, and you always follow his edicts, does that make you lawful even though he, being a plague god, is inherently chaotic?

If your chaotic god is 100% reliable in answering your prayers, even if you always pray for chaotic stuff, does that mean that they tend toward lawful?

Can you really be completely chaotic all of the time? Wouldn't that make you predictable? Even the Joker sometimes gets tired of poisoning people and blowing things up. Maybe that's the trick, you can be considered "chaotic" all the time if nobody can pin you down on the good/evil axis. You're forced to occasionally do things that benefit people so you don't become predictable.

I assume that all of the alignments represent a sort of average of your actions rather than an absolute requirement. Then if you have an off day and just paint your rec room they won't kick you out of the chaos club.

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