Critrical Hits & Misses

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Argennian
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Critrical Hits & Misses

#1 Post by Argennian »

(Curious what folks here think about this, so figured I'd ask and see!)

I know there are dozens of different tables and sources for these across all games and editions. Some folks either don't use them or if they do, just house rule something simple. I've seen some use the x2 or x3 damage for natural 20s on attack rolls, some use critical hits but not fumbles, some only apply it to PCs and not NPCs. Some folks are adamantly against using them. So:


- Do you use critical hits & misses in your game(s)?

- If not, or if so, why?
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Re: Critrical Hits & Misses

#2 Post by dmw71 »

Argennian wrote:Do you use critical hits & misses in your game(s)?
Dusting off the very old DM hat.

I would not be opposed to recognizing a natural roll of 1 or 20, but I tend to either not use them or, if used, not do anything too extreme. One thing I would insist upon in a game I adjudicate is balance. If critical hits are being used, critical fumbles should be used as well. If a critical hit or fumble system is being used, that system should be used by everyone -- players and monsters alike.

Back in my youth we didn't recognize fumbles, and would simply apply double damage or roll percentage dice against some chart from a Dragon magazine my brother had for critical hits. It was exciting back then, but most of the time the benefits of a critical hit were limited to just the players. That method was fine for me back then, and it doesn't really bother me now, but it just doesn't seems right. I am going to do my best to not firmly plant myself on the pro-monster side of the equation, but it seems like many games already go out of the way to give the players an edge (favorable ability score generation methods, maximum hit points at first level, additional starting spells, etc...). Now I am firmly of the belief that a DM has free reign to run their games however they wish, and wanting to give starting players an edge is totally acceptable. However, when it comes to critical rolls (ongoing events that occur at first level and all levels thereafter) I think limiting the benefits of such rolls to just the players is too extreme.

When is a roll a critical?

* Most simply, any natural roll of 1 or 20 is automatically critical.
* A second 'hit' roll could be required in order to make the initial natural 1 or 20 a critical. If you roll a natural 20, a second to-hit roll is made. If this additional roll results in a hit, the initial natural 20 roll becomes a critical hit. If this additional roll is a miss, the initial natural 20 is a simple hit with no critical benefits. The converse would apply for a natural 1.
* Still another option would requires two natural 1's or 20's in order for the roll to be critical. Similar to the previous option, except this time the second to-hit roll would need to be a matching result (1 or a 20) in order for the initial roll be considered a critical. Anything other than a matching critical result on this second roll translates into the initial roll being a simple hit or miss.


How to resolve critical rolls?

Here, again, it is best that the DM be allowed to implement whatever rules they believe to fit their game. However, some possible resolutions I've seen or read about include:

Critical Hits
* Granting an extra attack the player at the end of that round
* The hit results in maximum damage for the weapon being used without needing to roll.
* Roll for damage normally and multiple the result by two (e.g. double damage).
* Make two damage rolls. For instance, roll (1d8 + 1d8) instead of (1d8*2).
* Roll for damage normally and multiple the result by three (e.g. triple damage).
* Make three damage rolls. For instance, roll (1d8 + 1d8 + 1d8) instead of (1d8*3).

Critical Misses
* Stunned for 1 round.
* Stunned for 2 rounds.
* Stunned for 1d4 rounds.
* Hit self, normal damage.
* Hit self, double damage.
* Hit self, triple damage.


Well, hope this gets the conversation started. :D


- Dave


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Re: Critrical Hits & Misses

#3 Post by saalaria »

Ah takes me back twenty odd years to my FtF days:

We used to run double damage if a 20 was rolled. I remember rolling a second time to check for triple damage (if you got a second 20) but cant remember if you had to get another hit to confirm the double dam or if anything other than a 20 meant 'just' double dam.

Having read Dave's post, and assuming I get back to DMing one day, I would rule a 20 always hit and a second roll has to be a further successful hit to get the double dam and a miss just means a definite hit. A second 20 would mean a chance of triple damage.
The question is though would this apply to monsters too? We used to rule it did but I may just use DM fiat and not give monsters the same benefit by reason that 1) the game can be tough enough already 2) the characters are heroes so should get breaks like this.

1s were always fumbles and I spent several hours creating various tables for different weapon types or claws or bite etc. Roll d% and effects range from fall over completely, fall to one knee, break weapon, hit self, throw weapon in random direction, cover self in oil etc etc. I think I still have them scrawled on paper somewhere.

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Re: Critrical Hits & Misses

#4 Post by Alethan »

If criticals are a part of the game, then it should be with balance.

A part of me thinks that balance should be with every player and monster across the board. If players get critical hits, then so should monsters. If players get critical misses, then, likewise, monsters should fumble or drop their weapons or trip and lose their turn or whatever.

But another part of me thinks back to something I remember reading by Gary G. where he talks about how the people we're creating are HEROES. They do heroic and inexplicable acts that many others are unable to duplicate.

So with that in mind, I'm also OK with having criticals apply to the players (both positively and negatively, because what super hero do you know doesn't have some inexplicably stupid thing happen to them?), and maybe even the "arch villains", like the main bad guy they might have to fight at the end of the adventure, but not the lowly fodder they battle along the way.

In fact, I probably prefer the latter to the former. Main PCs and NPCs get criticals, hirelings and generic or common monsters/bad guys don't.
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Re: Critrical Hits & Misses

#5 Post by dmw71 »

dmw71 wrote:Back in my youth we didn't recognize fumbles, and would simply apply double damage or roll percentage dice against some chart from a Dragon magazine my brother had for critical hits.
Interestingly enough, I just happened to stumble upon the following blog post:

Critical Hit Tables

In it, the author uses the very same critical hit (and fumble) tables from the Dragon magazine I previously referenced.

The whole post is worth reading, but here are a few of the enhancements he incorporates into his game:
Critical Hit Tables wrote:* On natural "1" or "20", target saves vs. paralysis (level+3) or consult appropriate table.
* Fumbles: ignore indicated Dex checks.
* Liberal interpretations necessary: negate/change unreasonable results.
* Delayed death results negated by magical healing.
* Undead immune to effects except head crushing/decapitation.
I like the saving throw to avoid, and also find the below to be a pretty twisted rule which could be a lot of fun (especially in a face-to-face game):
Critical Hit Tables wrote:Edit: Also, consider making the victim roll the d% dice to determine the final critical-hit effect. Holy god, the look of horror on the player's face when they have to do that is unparalleled.
:twisted:


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Re: Critrical Hits & Misses

#6 Post by Argennian »

Great responses here, all. 8-)

In most of my games, when I do decide to apply critical hits and fumbles, I usually go with the following:

1. Critical Hits apply to PCs and leveled NPCs (good or bad), but not most monsters, save the leader types/BBEGs.
2. Critical Fumbles apply to PCs, NPCs and monsters. I do feel that if you're going to force that on players and good npcs, you've gotta hold the baddies and monsters to it too. Critical fumbles on some charts/systems can be absolutely brutal deadly and I've had a few PCs come very close to biting the dust on a bad roll from the chart there when they are engaged with a powerful or intelligent (or both) opponent.


In my pbp game here, I use a modified form of Bloodymage's Critical Hits & Fumbles chart, from DF's 2004 Footprints e-zine (Vol 1, pg9) which encompasses the following:

When someone rolls a 20 on an attack roll, I then roll another 20 for them.
- If the follow up roll indicates another hit versus the opponent's AC, I roll on the Gnarly Hit chart (01-90% only). This chart is uber-brutal but still needs like a 99-100 on a percentile roll to mean instant death, iirc.
- If the follow up roll indicates a miss versus the opponent's AC, I simply roll a d6 and compare it to the normal Critical Hit chart, going with the higher of the two depending on the percentile roll. For the d6 roll: 1-2: maximum base weapon damage, 3-4: weapon damage with modifiers times two, 6: maximum weapon damage times three (no modifiers).
- If the follow up roll is another 20 (never happened yet), then a d10 is rolled to represent 91-100 on a percentile from the Gnarly Hit Chart or perhaps even a deathblow if made by a PC!


When someone rolls a 1 on an attack roll, I then roll another 20 for them.
- If the follow up roll indicates a hit versus the opponent's AC, I simply have them muff the attack in an embarrassing manner, usually tripping over themselves but holding onto their weapn. (This can still be bad if they're attacked by an engaged opponent as they would then have a bonus to hit the character that fumbled.)
- If the follow up roll indicates another miss versus the opponent's AC, I roll on the Critical Fumble chart (which is no picnic, I can assure you!)
- If the follow up roll is another 1, (again, never happened) then I roll a d4 or d6 to represent a 99 or 100 on the percentile from the Critical Miss chart.

Note: There is no Gnarly Fumble table. (thank goodness! ;) )


Standard Disclaimer: As always, the golden rule of D&D applies: DM fiat is reserved for use at any time here as it normally is in the game. Since the DM makes the rolls, no one will likely ever know, although I'm usually unable to keep that stuff to myself! :)


dmw71 wrote: ...
Critical Hit Tables wrote:Edit: Also, consider making the victim roll the d% dice to determine the final critical-hit effect. Holy god, the look of horror on the player's face when they have to do that is unparalleled.
:twisted:


Yep, in my FtF games I make the player roll this one as well! :twisted:
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Fireball... good!!

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Re: Critrical Hits & Misses

#7 Post by saalaria »

All interesting stuff and gives plenty to think about. Just to clarify on my earlier posts. Monsters can fumble but don't do double damage on a 20.

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Re: Critrical Hits & Misses

#8 Post by Spiderdown »

I always thought critical fumbles were a bit severe - my experience in various D&D's is that rolling a 1 (i.e. 5% chance) happens very often. As such there are two things that bothered me about them.

1) Your highly trained fighter has a chance to lose his weapon or in some cases accidentally cut his own head off. This is expected to happen once every 20 rounds or so and in the course of, say, a three-day battle would happen many many times.

2) No matter how much your fighter practices with their trusty favourite weapon that they've had since they were three, their chance of losing it or stabbing themselves with it remains 5% regardless. Whether you are a 0th-level fighter with no prospects for advancement or a 36th-level fighter walking the path to godhood in BECMI, your chance to butterfinger your sword is exactly the same and the results may actually be worse for the epic hero if he has, for example, a vorpal sword.

From a narrative standpoint critical fumbles don't add much; you might see someone lose their weapon in a story or a book but much more often they're disarmed by someone else, which is handled differently. Heroes accidentally killing themselves is extremely rare.

If you want the PC to lose their weapon, supply a reason! When an ogre swats them across the room it's not that unreasonable for them to drop what they're holding, but in practice this rarely happens. :)

A better system would be to have enemies get critical hits, leaving the result to the discretion of the DM. If the ogre gets a critical hit he knocks your shield off or swats you a few squares. If the goblin gets a critical hit he grabs onto your leg and reduces your movement by 1. There's much more fun things to have happen on that 5% and they don't involve the hero fumbling their stuff every 20 minutes.

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Re: Critrical Hits & Misses

#9 Post by Dogma »

We used to play that for a natural 20 it was always a hit, you'd roll damage as normal but it would also reduce the opponents AC by one. The idea being that the armor / hide/ scales took such a might blow (or a well placed one) that it was actually damaged. It the opponent had a shield it could take the hit and be destroyed.

A natural 1 was always a miss and weapons took a -1 to damage.

These applied to both PCs and monsters/ NPC and affects would persist until repaired. Usually by a blacksmith/armorer, though I seem to remember we did rule that cloth/leather armor could repaired once by the wearer in the field.

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Re: Critrical Hits & Misses

#10 Post by sirravd »

Yes. I love the DCC tables too much not to use them, even for LL!

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Re: Critrical Hits & Misses

#11 Post by dmw71 »

Dogma wrote:We used to play that for a natural 20 it was always a hit, you'd roll damage as normal but it would also reduce the opponents AC by one. The idea being that the armor / hide/ scales took such a might blow (or a well placed one) that it was actually damaged. It the opponent had a shield it could take the hit and be destroyed.

A natural 1 was always a miss and weapons took a -1 to damage.
This is actually an interesting idea.


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Re: Critrical Hits & Misses

#12 Post by GreyWolfVT »

Argennian wrote:(Curious what folks here think about this, so figured I'd ask and see!)

I know there are dozens of different tables and sources for these across all games and editions. Some folks either don't use them or if they do, just house rule something simple. I've seen some use the x2 or x3 damage for natural 20s on attack rolls, some use critical hits but not fumbles, some only apply it to PCs and not NPCs. Some folks are adamantly against using them. So:

- Do you use critical hits & misses in your game(s)?

- If not, or if so, why?
A part 1: Yes I do.
A part 2: However I might add I don't use the critical hits the same for monsters and NPCs as I do the PCs. I'm sure questions will issue forth from that statement alone. I use for the PCs one of those "charts" your speaking of. Found at least 3 out there that I have however my favorite one is the one I located on http://www.dndadventure.com.
This is the chart or table I favor: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B23wL3 ... sp=sharing

Reason I don't like to use the same rules for crits on my monsters/NPCs as the PCs is lately it appears when I use our famous roller here at the Unseen Servant the monsters and NPCs are getting more critical hits that could kill a PC and I try not to be that much of an evil DM (anymore) so i generally use the chart/table for critical misses only for both PC and NPC/Monster and generally do a double damage on all crit rolls for PCs which I count a roll of 19 & 20 as a critical hit from a PC natural roll not with modifiers and monsters only get a critical hit from a natural 20. Double damage for all crits nothing special unless the PC is doing a "specialize attack" such as trying to decapitate a giant spider.

Call me crazy but I haven't felt like making the critical hits overly crazy by using the chart as of yet. Perhaps down the road. :)
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Re: Critrical Hits & Misses

#13 Post by sirravd »

What do you guys think of the DCC tables?

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Re: Critrical Hits & Misses

#14 Post by Starbeard »

I haven't used them much, but I think they're great. The DCC spell tables aren't really called critical tables, but that's basically what they are, and those really add a lot to the game. I've used those spell tables whenever I needed a scaled or random effect in my B/X game, and I've used the critical/fumble tables a few times as well. They remind me of using the Arms Law table, but designed around D&D sensibilities.

I haven't tried fully play testing it yet, but when I do my next house rule for criticals will be pretty simple: "a 1 always misses; a 20 always hits and forces the target to save vs death."

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Re: Critrical Hits & Misses

#15 Post by sirravd »

That's a pretty brutal crit rule!

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Re: Critrical Hits & Misses

#16 Post by Starbeard »

I know! The way I figure it, it gives any attack a 5% chance of forcing a save or die, which a 1st level character will average around a 40-60% chance of passing. So the characters are always risking something around a 1:50 death blow whenever they get into combat. A very high character would still risk a 1:100 or smaller probability of meeting a death blow. I like that, as it makes any combat a high risk, but it also means that foolhardy low-level characters can always try their luck against a giant or a dragon.

Awhile ago I made some analyses of RoleMaster and figured that the deadliness was somewhere around that same level, so it seems doable. However, with this rule I can keep things at BX/AD&D levels of combat abstraction: the critical either kills you or it doesn't.

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Re: Critrical Hits & Misses

#17 Post by sirravd »

It would work if you ran a game that was as non-combat-focused as possible. This is a bit tough to do with D&D in any of its iterations, where combat is so central.

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Re: Critrical Hits & Misses

#18 Post by Zhym »

Spiderdown wrote:I always thought critical fumbles were a bit severe - my experience in various D&D's is that rolling a 1 (i.e. 5% chance) happens very often. As such there are two things that bothered me about them.

1) Your highly trained fighter has a chance to lose his weapon or in some cases accidentally cut his own head off. This is expected to happen once every 20 rounds or so and in the course of, say, a three-day battle would happen many many times.

2) No matter how much your fighter practices with their trusty favourite weapon that they've had since they were three, their chance of losing it or stabbing themselves with it remains 5% regardless. Whether you are a 0th-level fighter with no prospects for advancement or a 36th-level fighter walking the path to godhood in BECMI, your chance to butterfinger your sword is exactly the same and the results may actually be worse for the epic hero if he has, for example, a vorpal sword.

From a narrative standpoint critical fumbles don't add much; you might see someone lose their weapon in a story or a book but much more often they're disarmed by someone else, which is handled differently. Heroes accidentally killing themselves is extremely rare.
These are some really good points (from a post three years ago). Fumbles do happen too often if they always happen on a 1, especially at higher levels. Fumble rules that can result in broken weapons are even worse.

I'm coming around to the idea of ditching fumbles entirely and keeping critical hits simple—max damage, double damage, something like that.

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Re: Critrical Hits & Misses

#19 Post by Inferno »

Spiderdown wrote:...Your highly trained fighter has a chance to lose his weapon or in some cases accidentally cut his own head off...
What if rolling a natural '1' requires you to Save vs. Fumble:
Save on 1d20. If you roll over your level, or a 20, then you have a fumble effect.
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Re: Critrical Hits & Misses

#20 Post by OGRE MAGE »

Oohhh.....I like that one......

Hmmmmmmm.

Thanks for the idea!!! :D

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