Character Generation and Ability Scores (Merged Topic)

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Inferno
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Re: Character Generation and Ability Scores (Merged Topic)

#41 Post by Inferno »

At the risk of merging another topic, Moldvay fixes this in his 'Basic AD&D game' called Challenges: viewtopic.php?p=245364#p245364

This link shows how stats benefit the other classes in Challenges: http://stockingthedungeon.blogspot.com/ ... score.html

And Moldvay's simplified AD&D has character generation at 2d6+6 rolled nine times to fill six slots. :o
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Re: Character Generation and Ability Scores (Merged Topic)

#42 Post by dmw71 »

Inferno wrote:Moldvay fixes this...
To fix assumes something is broken. I'm not so sure. There's a certain... charm, if you will, about the 3d6 method, where everyone benefits equally from their ability scores.
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Re: Character Generation and Ability Scores (Merged Topic)

#43 Post by Inferno »

Ha. Sorry. To clarify, I meant Moldvay "fixes" (or at least addresses) this:
Zhym wrote:One of the crazy things about Moldvay Basic D&D is that Intelligence has almost no effect on an MU's ability.
This dynamic seems to remain in Challenges:
dmw71 wrote:A magic-user with a high strength enjoys the same to-hit/damage benefits as a fighter. Just as a cleric with a high dexterity has the same benefit to their armor class as a thief would.
:)
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Re: Character Generation and Ability Scores (Merged Topic)

#44 Post by Alethan »

You are still not creating a character true to the dice rolls if you roll high STR and play the MU.

He's not going to wade into battle like the fighter would with his AC9 because he can't wear armour and has d4 for HP.
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Re: Character Generation and Ability Scores (Merged Topic)

#45 Post by onlyme »

Alethan wrote:In the really real world, how do you handle it when you have a team of people who have to work together on a project and two or three of the team members cannot perform at the same level as the other team members (due to circumstances they can or cannot control - doesn't matter)?

You adjust. You give the tasks they can handle to those players and you adapt the team to compensate. Sometimes it's a natural progression; sometimes it's very up-front and obvious.
The difference in real life, however, is that you don't have team members purposefully playing down to a random limitation. At least, I hope my fellow employees aren't rolling dice before work each day to see who gets to play the baffoon.
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But, for me, the idea of taking an average (or sub-average) character and making them do exceptional things is very appealing. It's the bigger challenge. And I like that.
I agree with you on the last sentence. Again, as long as the party is generally of the same aptitude, playing PCs with nothing higher than a 7 in any attribute would probably be fun. And really, the whole thing is about fun.
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Re: Character Generation and Ability Scores (Merged Topic)

#46 Post by Alethan »

onlyme wrote:
Alethan wrote:In the really real world, how do you handle it when you have a team of people who have to work together on a project and two or three of the team members cannot perform at the same level as the other team members (due to circumstances they can or cannot control - doesn't matter)?

You adjust. You give the tasks they can handle to those players and you adapt the team to compensate. Sometimes it's a natural progression; sometimes it's very up-front and obvious.
The difference in real life, however, is that you don't have team members purposefully playing down to a random limitation. At least, I hope my fellow employees aren't rolling dice before work each day to see who gets to play the baffoon.
Don't take me too literally. My point is that nothing is ever ideal; you work with what you have and make the best of it. That's life. That's Basic Chargen.
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Re: Character Generation and Ability Scores (Merged Topic)

#47 Post by dmw71 »

Alethan wrote:You are still not creating a character true to the dice rolls if you roll high STR and play the MU.
That sounds like a challenge. ;)
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Re: Character Generation and Ability Scores (Merged Topic)

#48 Post by Alethan »

dmw71 wrote:
Alethan wrote:You are still not creating a character true to the dice rolls if you roll high STR and play the MU.
That sounds like a challenge. ;)
Like I said, play what you like. But... don't complain when your MU with STR 17 and 2hp is still considered useless by the rest of the party because all they can do is carry a heavier torch.

;)

The idea behind the Basic Rules Chargen is to play to the strengths of the dice rolls. Yes, you can chose to build whatever character you like with the dice rolls you have, but... it won't be the optimal build.

I'm not talking Min/Maxing an optimal build here; just your basic "I have high STR and CON, so I should probably go with a class that relies on both, like Fighter or Dwarf."
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Re: Character Generation and Ability Scores (Merged Topic)

#49 Post by dmw71 »

I love Basic D&D (well BX, not so much BECMI), and, as a DM, I have always found it exciting to see the results when players generate their ability scores using 3d6 in order. That is, until I watched a YouTube video which blasted that method! The host was frequently vulgar and occasionally offensive (which is why I'm electing to not just link to it), but he did make a compelling argument... and has left me scrambling to decide upon an alternate generation method (and, no, 4d6c1 isn't a consideration).

My objective is simply to avoid stats four or five and below, which has me considering the following: 1d6 + 1d8 + 4.

Using the above will produce results in the 6-18 range, which is pretty much where I want them, but.. I don't know?

Anyone have any thoughts? Alternative method suggestions?
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Re: Character Generation and Ability Scores (Merged Topic)

#50 Post by Zhym »

What's the argument that 3d6 in order is bad?

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Re: Character Generation and Ability Scores (Merged Topic)

#51 Post by dmw71 »

Zhym wrote:What's the argument that 3d6 in order is bad?
I'm pretty sure he had issues with the method in general, but he rolled a random character to open the video and the character ended up with a 4 Intelligence and a 4 Wisdom. He really had a field day with how that character, realistically, would be played.

And he wasn't wrong.

I'm in my car at the moment, but I'll track down and share the video later tonight from home.
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Re: Character Generation and Ability Scores (Merged Topic)

#52 Post by Zhym »

See, some of my favorite characters have some really low stats. Of course, they also have compensating high stats.

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Re: Character Generation and Ability Scores (Merged Topic)

#53 Post by dmw71 »

His position was that a character with 4's in both INT and WIS would be beyond idiotic (he used a different word for it), and he's not really wrong. It's not the type of person you want to give a sword or other dangerous weapon to, and would have the other members of his community watching over him and preventing him from even leaving town.

Believe me, as a player, I love characters with low ability scores, but never really considered how a character with that low of mental stats would really behave.

I'll provide a link to the video later, because now I'm interested in if everyone else will agree with his position or not?
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Re: Character Generation and Ability Scores (Merged Topic)

#54 Post by dmw71 »

dmw71 wrote:I'll provide a link to the video later, because now I'm interested in if everyone else will agree with his position or not?
The video I was referencing is below. I wrapped it in spoilers because -- again -- it's not the most appropriate: There are parts that are pretty funny, but other parts are offensive.
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Re: Character Generation and Ability Scores (Merged Topic)

#55 Post by Inferno »

dmw71 wrote:(and, no, 4d6c1 isn't a consideration).
Why not? :)

I think Call of Cthulhu did 3d6 for most stats and 2d6+6 for things like Intelligence.
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Azoth Al-Aziz: Lovecraftian Cultist, Tamoachan
Blodget: Foolish Young 9th Level Hobbit, Dark Clouds
Dredd Doomsmith: Dwarven Deathtrap Engineer, Tomb of Horrors
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Jack in the Green: Ancient Child, Giants
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Sir Ugghra: Bestial Half-Orc Aristocrat, Brotherton
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Re: Character Generation and Ability Scores (Merged Topic)

#56 Post by dmw71 »

Inferno wrote:
dmw71 wrote:(and, no, 4d6c1 isn't a consideration).
Why not? :)
For starters, it's boring. :D

Besides that, adding the extra d6 won't eliminate poor rolls, just minimize them.
Inferno wrote:I think Call of Cthulhu did 3d6 for most stats and 2d6+6 for things like Intelligence.
That'd be a possibility, I suppose.

Honestly, I could see a low stat in just about any other ability except Intelligence. Too low of Intelligence and, if role-played correctly, you're just not going to be functional as an adventurer. I was actually thinking about 2d6+6 for all stats (which is a somewhat more widely accepted method), but thought 1d6 + 1d8 + 4, which is almost the same thing, would make things more interesting.
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Re: Character Generation and Ability Scores (Merged Topic)

#57 Post by Zhym »

There's something to be said for (1) mulligans and (2) not being a slave to your PC's stats.

On the first point, people who complain about 3d6-in-order always seem to ignore the possibly of just scrapping those characters. It's even officially sanctioned in B/X:
Moldvay Basic p. B13 wrote:"Hopeless Characters"

Sometimes, a player may "roll up" a character who is below average in every ability, or who has more than one very low (3-6) ability score (such as a fighter with very low Dexterity and Constitution). The DM may declare the character to be not suited for dangerous adventure, and the player may be allowed to roll up a new character in place of the "hopeless" one.
Moldvay also allows certain 2-for-1 stat swaps. And even if you get a jerk DM who says "no mulligans," the death rate in B/X is so high that it probably won't be long before you're rolling up a new character soon anyway. Especially if you can make your PC engage in some not-quite-obviously-suicidal behavior. Wisdom of 4? Charge into every battle! If you survive, it'll be awesome!

As for the second point, it's okay to limit the extent to which one role-plays low mental and social stats. Intelligence of 4 doesn't mean "babbling idiot." And even if it might in the real world, there's no reason to be forced to play it that way in a game. Just as a there will be game mechanics for which high physical scores are beneficial and low physical scores are detrimental, a good game will have situations in which high or low mental scores matter to the mechanics too.

But if 3d6 isn't to your liking, it's just a question of what probability distribution you want. FWIW, here's a chart comparing the probabilities for 3d6 vs. 1d6+1d8+4:
RollMethods.png
RollMethods.png (64.29 KiB) Viewed 3739 times

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Re: Character Generation and Ability Scores (Merged Topic)

#58 Post by dmw71 »

Zhym wrote:There's something to be said for (1) mulligans and (2) not being a slave to your PC's stats.

On the first point, people who complain about 3d6-in-order always seem to ignore the possibly of just scrapping those characters. It's even officially sanctioned in B/X:
Moldvay Basic p. B13 wrote:"Hopeless Characters"

Sometimes, a player may "roll up" a character who is below average in every ability, or who has more than one very low (3-6) ability score (such as a fighter with very low Dexterity and Constitution). The DM may declare the character to be not suited for dangerous adventure, and the player may be allowed to roll up a new character in place of the "hopeless" one.
Moldvay also allows certain 2-for-1 stat swaps. And even if you get a jerk DM who says "no mulligans," the death rate in B/X is so high that it probably won't be long before you're rolling up a new character soon anyway. Especially if you can make your PC engage in some not-quite-obviously-suicidal behavior.
This is true. Ideally, though, I wouldn't mind trying to find a solution that minimizes the need to worry about mulligans.
Zhym wrote: Wisdom of 4? Charge into every battle! If you survive, it'll be awesome!
Which is exactly why I was less concerned about a 4 Wisdom than I was a 4 Intelligence. A character like this could be bad for the rest of the party, though. ;)
Zhym wrote:As for the second point, it's okay to limit the extent to which one role-plays low mental and social stats. Intelligence of 4 doesn't mean "babbling idiot." And even if it might in the real world, there's no reason to be forced to play it that way in a game.
I want to say that it was in 1e where they equated each point of an Intelligence score to 10 IQ points. If so, 30, or 40, or even 50 IQ is pretty darn useless. Heck, I just took a look at IQ classification on Wikipedia and, by most measures, anything less than 70 is extremely low.

It's a game -- a fantasy game, no less -- so a feeble-minded character can still work (I guess). I can see it being extremely difficult to role-play accurately, though.
Zhym wrote:But if 3d6 isn't to your liking, it's just a question of what probability distribution you want. FWIW, here's a chart comparing the probabilities for 3d6 vs. 1d6+1d8+4:
RollMethods.png
This is awesome, man. That 1d6 + 1d8 + 4 method really eliminates the dangerously low stats, minimizes just generally low ones, and looks to return some decent stats with decent regularity without actually guarantee them. I might have to give it a chance sometime.
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Re: Character Generation and Ability Scores (Merged Topic)

#59 Post by Zhym »

dmw71 wrote:I want to say that it was in 1e where they equated each point of an Intelligence score to 10 IQ points. If so, 30, or 40, or even 50 IQ is pretty darn useless.
That's a pretty bad estimation, especially at the extremes. Here's a better comparison:

Code: Select all

INT     IQ 
 3      57
 4      66
 5      72
 6      78
 7      83
 8      88
 9      93
10      98
11     102
12     107
13     112
14     117
15     122
16     128
17     134
18     143
dmw71 wrote:Heck, I just took a look at IQ classification on Wikipedia and, by most measures, anything less than 70 is extremely low.
Low, but not non-functional. I wouldn't see someone in that range having trouble being a fighter, for example.

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Re: Character Generation and Ability Scores (Merged Topic)

#60 Post by dmw71 »

Zhym wrote:
dmw71 wrote:I want to say that it was in 1e where they equated each point of an Intelligence score to 10 IQ points. If so, 30, or 40, or even 50 IQ is pretty darn useless.
That's a pretty bad estimation, especially at the extremes. Here's a better comparison:

Code: Select all

INT     IQ 
 3      57
 4      66
 5      72
 6      78
 7      83
 8      88
 9      93
10      98
11     102
12     107
13     112
14     117
15     122
16     128
17     134
18     143
So the 1:10 ratio isn't accurate... thank goodness. Thanks for sharing that link (it's way too much math for me to process at this time of night, while not feeling great, but I've bookmarked it and will definitely refer back to it later).

I'm still intrigued by the 1d6 + 1d8 +4 method, and will probably want to try it at some point, but I'm feeling better about 3d6 again, which, as I stated in my original reply tonight, is pretty exciting.
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