Hit points

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Spiderdown
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Hit points

#1 Post by Spiderdown »

So what does it mean when a character gets hit? I usually read it one of two ways but I'm never sure which is the right one.

One is that they are literally injured, the arrow sticks in them. This is the easiest reading but not so good from a realism / story standpoint, since we're basically saying that they've been stabbed and shot any number of times but are shrugging it off somehow. In this case more hit points means more serious injuries that they can ignore without ill effect.

The other is that hit points represent some kind of ability to avoid injury, either a resistance that diminishes or in some cases basically luck that runs out. In this case it's notional, the PC doesn't literally take an arrow in the gut and laugh it off, but is instead merely grazed, or dodges it but is unlikely to be able to again.

D&D is a bit unreliable on which of these it uses and I don't really know which one I use either. The old D&D games made by SSI (Curse of the Azure Bonds and so on) had a rule that stated you could kill any incapacitated character "with one cruel blow", regardless of level. (Which by the way made "stinking cloud" an incredibly valuable spell in that game.) This suggests that your hit points don't literally represent the ability to shrug off more hits, because in cases where you're helpless a goblin can kill you with a stick.

What's your reading of hit points? What do they mean?

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Re: Hit points

#2 Post by dmw71 »

I've always thought of hit points as being an abstract reflection of overall health, but the loss of hit points (e.g. character is hit) does not directly translate into a specific wound or injury. I imagine it being a combination of several things -- health, stamina, luck, experience, durability and, I'm sure, other things I can't think of at the moment.

How is that a fighter that is so much better at avoiding death when they're 10th level as opposed to when they were 1st? Did their health change? Their stamina? Durability? Maybe in small part, but not *that* much (e.g. 7 hit points versus 70 hit points; average 7 on d10). That's where the luck, or maybe experience come into play.

I've always assumed "some" loss of hit points would translate into injury (a fighter working their way up to 10th level from 1st will have undoubtedly received their fair share of cuts and bruises) which is where I digress from the notion that hit points represents strictly an ability to "avoid death," but it's partly that... and more.

Of course, I'm sounding incredibly hypocritical now since it occurred to me that, as a DM, I'm pretty sure I've violated everything I said above every. single. time. When describing a character hit by a monster, they were always nicked or slashed with a sword, or stuck with a spear. It's more dramatic and easier to picture, but probably not entirely accurate. It's also a lot simpler.

A monster hits for 2 damage:
DM: "The monster nicks you and you take two points of damage."

It's never:
DM: "The monster hits, but doesn't actually strike you... you just lose some stamina. Mark off two hit points."




At least that's my take.


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Re: Hit points

#3 Post by Alethan »

I tend to view it along the same lines as Dave, although I envision a bit more physical damage taken.

Why, then, isn't everyone covered with unsightly scars from head to toe like Dirk Pitt (I can't find it now, but I recall seeing a graphic of the human body with marks in every location the horrible protagonist of so many Clive Cussler "novels" -- and I use that word lightly -- receive an injury; it was quite humorous)?

If players healed every injury solely by recovering 1 HP of damage naturally every day through rest, then they might. But in many cases, characters use magical healing aids - potions, spells, salves - to expedite their recovery. These treatments heal without leaving scars.

I haven't put any more thought into it than that because, frankly, I think it would be over-thinking the subject.
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Re: Hit points

#4 Post by Spiderdown »

Part of the reason I wonder about this is because there are certain aspects of the game that read differently depending on which of these you use.

Hit point numbers get pretty big in the D&Ds, over a hundred for a healthy high-level character, which is enough to withstand several cannonballs or a fall from any height. Damage, however, doesn't increase by level. As such, two high-level warriors who duel to the death with knives may take hours about it and that seems weird. (I first thought of this while kiting some thug in the arena in the KOTOR CRPG; the fight took about half an hour and it seemed kind of silly, shooting the guy a hundred times before he fell down.)

Also, if you're a 1st-level fighter, you can recover from most wounds within two weeks with no special treatment. If you're a 10th-level fighter and your hit points are nearly depleted the recovery may take months.

If hit points represent luck or stamina as described above, healing should probably affect a percentage of total hit points. I think they did this in 4E to some extent but I'm not that familiar with 4E...

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Re: Hit points

#5 Post by Eulalios »

My response to this is to invert the D&D to-hit / hp paradigm and make it "deal damage" / "save vs damage" with the save improving as the character levels, the damage dealt remaining basically constant (though higher level fighters get multi-attacks).

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Re: Hit points

#6 Post by ProfessorJones »

I've seen HP discussed by someone...(let me think)...in another forum...(DF?)... and his opinion was that HP reflected ones actual "Stamina"...the degree to which one can move/exert/burn calories/etc., while avoiding assault be it physical/magical/breath/poison/and so on.

Basically, all characters have 1 hp. As long as they have that, then they are living. Anymore beyond that is just "stamina" according to "him" and when that stamina is depleted, the next blow/attack that strikes tells the tale.

I'll have to think on this.

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Re: Hit points

#7 Post by tooleychris »

The DMG states that hitpoints are a reflection of the characters ability to dodge and parry, as well as physical stamina. So, how does this come into play If a character is unable to dodge?
If Sereniti the rogue ties up some level 20 warrior and slowly drips acid on him, could he sustain 120 damage bbefore melting away?
It's an inherent flaw in the system where the creators Never assumed players would get past level 5.
Unfortunately, it was THE popular system so everyone mimicked it.
Even 1970s Gamma World saw this flaw and limited HPs to a characters Constitution. (Mostly)
Of course such systems where HPs aren't based on levels and can soar to astronomical heights tend to be a bit deadly.
BRP, Call of Cuthulu, MERP, Rolemaster, CODA, all took into account actual skills that helped the character survive like parry, evasion, block, dodge, ect... leaving HPs mostly the same.
Honestly, it may feel like a bit more realism but it's just more dice rolling for the same results.
Ad&D, and similar systems just removed the extra rolls and ASSUMED the character would be trying to block or dodge.
The reason I call it a flaw is because of the rate HPs in D&D heal naturally.
It makes sense to heal very low amounts of physical damage with a nights rest. It doesn't make sense to lose the ability to parry or block because you didn't rest for a week and have some heal spell cast on you.
Now with all that being said (and entirely my opinion) I'm not, and would never, say you're playing the wrong system or playing any system incorrectly. Play whatever and however you have fun.





Switch to BRP and you'll probably have more fun :lol:

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Re: Hit points

#8 Post by rredmond »

Combat, and hit points, need to be abstract. That's the beauty of D&D not a flaw at all.

There are ways I could see that the level 20 warrior can resist death by the slowly dripping acid. He's a hero (in AD&D) of a character, that's how he got to that level. Of course I house rule some of the negative hit point stuff, so there's me not following the rules. :)

This is always an interesting read, maybe not helpful but interesting!
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Re: Hit points

#9 Post by tooleychris »

It's a good read for understanding HPs for the first time, or having it spelled out for you. But it still doesn't change the fact that even a child COULD inflict a fatal wound to a mighty warrior. It could happen. In a few game systems it DOES happen, granted on a really good roll.
What he points out is making healing be more effective by healing a number of points times the creatures HD or level.
I think that is a great fix for a HP system that isn't "a flaw at all." :)
If you think about computer games, even more modern versions, a night of rest (pushing the old reliable 'R' button) heals the character immediately so as to continue with the fun. I wonder Why game developers changed this 20 year old HP system...

I am far from a rules nazi, but his mention of damage=physical damage is a bit off....
Hit Points - The number of points of damage a creature can sustain before death (or optionally, coma), reflecting the creature’s physical endurance, fight- ing experience, skill, or luck.
DMG p228
Why then the increase in hit points? Because these reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to withstand damage - as indicated by constitution bonuses- and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat and similar life-or-death situations, the "sixth sense" whith warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection. Therefore, constitution affects both actual ability to withstand physical punishment hit points (physique) and the immeasurable areas which involve the sixth sense and luck (fitness)
DMG p82

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Re: Hit points

#10 Post by rredmond »

tooleychris wrote:...But it still doesn't change the fact that even a child COULD inflict a fatal wound to a mighty warrior. ...
Surely, I think the standard example in AD&D is that a common housecat can kill most zero-levels, as well as a first level PC or two in one go.

All good fun! :D
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Re: Hit points

#11 Post by GreyWolfVT »

Here is how I look at it hit points are reflected as how much life a being has. Think about one of my favorite scenes in LOTR Borimir took how many arrows and was still able to fight on? You can get hit but the theory I see is that when you are in a battle you can take many non-fatal wounds and the adrenaline and battle rage can keep you going until a fatal wound is sustained or due to the current wounds taken you bleed out and die or flat out total HP loss from taking too many wounds. Not all hits are in places that would kill someone immediately.
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Re: Hit points

#12 Post by MonkeyWrench »

Hit points to me are physical damage related to amount of damage given, for example a dagger attack 1d6 hitting for 2 points of damage would really only amount to a cut while a full damage of 6 is more like a stab or large gash from the knife. that is my view in its most basic sense.

For higher level characters that have a bunch of hit points I let my imagination take it from the basic points and then branch out, a character with 160 HP takes a knife attack for 2 points of damage versus a lvl 0 taking a knife attack for 2 points of damage. The higher level character has seen some shit in his day and because of that has the equipment to handle a situation and the experience needed, that knife attack for 2 damage? cut to his arm as he is dodging the attack and a full damage of 6 is the enemy is trying to stab an experienced warrior with nice armor, you wont be getting too far that way. While the lower level? Well there's only so much a person can do with rags and about 3 days of experience ya know?

so I suppose my view of HP is an accumulation of stamina, endurance, health, experience, equipment. Which is basically what you are doing in D&D when you first factor your HP and AC using modifiers and equipment.

all in all you people think about these things too much, take the arrow like a champ and whoop some ass ;)
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Re: Hit points

#13 Post by GreyWolfVT »

just look at it like this:
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“All men did have darkness. Some wore it in the form of horns. Some bore it invisibly as rot in their souls.”
― Paul S. Kemp, Shadowbred
"If good people won’t do the hard things, evil people will always win, because evil people will do anything."
― Paul S. Kemp, Twilight Falling

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Re: Hit points

#14 Post by MonkeyWrench »

:lol: :lol:
If you aren't dead then everything is just "a flesh wound"
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Re: Hit points

#15 Post by GreyWolfVT »

Even if all you are is a torso and a head it is still just a flesh wound ;)
“All men did have darkness. Some wore it in the form of horns. Some bore it invisibly as rot in their souls.”
― Paul S. Kemp, Shadowbred
"If good people won’t do the hard things, evil people will always win, because evil people will do anything."
― Paul S. Kemp, Twilight Falling

Algrim Tirion Dwarf - HarnMaser
Dalin Silverhand Dwarf Thief - Barrowmaze
Elwood 'Dug' The Bounty Hunter Dwarf Swashbuckler - Hedge's Adventures in the World of Golarion
Roan Gravelbeard Dwarf Fighter - Hedge's Greyhawk Adventures
Torvik Shadowhood Dwarf Fighter/Thief - Nocturne
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Re: Hit points

#16 Post by Pulpatoon »

B/X is pretty clear on this. Hit points are many things beyond physical damage. The actual physical component is accounted for in just the first four hit points. A weak human has one hit point, a big strong human, like a blacksmith, has four hit points Every additional hit point beyond that represents skill at avoiding getting killed.

I'm all for this, because I'm all for abstract combat.

However, it breaks down if you look at too closely. Healing rates make zero sense with this model. And it's unsatisfying to describe damage as "You are getting a little bit more worn out and losing your an extra smidge of your combat edge."

So, I tend to treat hit points as physcial damage, but I keep in mind for certain situations (like getting your throat slashed while tied up, or falling off a cliff) that four points of damage can kill even the strongest human.

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Re: Hit points

#17 Post by Pulpatoon »

Oh, also, acknowledging the abstraction of hit points allows the GM to award hit point recovery for non-healing activities: eating a hearty meal, having a belt of whiskey, hearing a rousing speech from a bard or warlord, simply catching your breath after combat, etc. Any of which I would consider good for one hit point recovered (but would not allow them to stack).

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Re: Hit points

#18 Post by rredmond »

Pulpatoon wrote:Oh, also, acknowledging the abstraction of hit points allows the GM to award hit point recovery for non-healing activities: eating a hearty meal, having a belt of whiskey, hearing a rousing speech from a bard or warlord, simply catching your breath after combat, etc. Any of which I would consider good for one hit point recovered (but would not allow them to stack).
Stupid internet lost my post. I love these ideas and have seen beer-muscle house rules before that were used in game. Bonuses to HP and DAM, but minuses to hit and DEX. Folks would have severely wounded comrades down a wine skin so that they could have a chance of getting them to town.

As far as the 4 HP rule, I'm such a 1Enard that I've never heard it before. I'm intrigued by the idea! Thanks for sharing Pulpatoon!

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