A role playing game without rolling

Message
Author
User avatar
Rukellian
Rider of Rohan
Rider of Rohan
Posts: 5193
Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 11:13 pm
Location: US East Coast

A role playing game without rolling

#1 Post by Rukellian »

I've been entertaining the thought of setting up a game in which a story is crafted through the voices of the players and their characters. I've been mightily impressed by the writing abilities of many members of this community, and I someday would like to see all of their collective writing potential pooled into one campaign. The catch.... there will be no dice rolling whatsoever. The game system would only serve as a base as to what the characters are able to do and with what. The setting of the campaign can be based off of a game module that everyone is familiar with or it can be completely made from scratch, using everyone's ideas and what they would like to see in such a world they would be playing in.

There would obstacles that would need to be overcome, issues that would need to be resolved, I realize that. But all in all, I think this would be a unique oppurtunity to do something out of the norm while sticking with what we know and love when it comes to role playing games. What say you all on this? Harsh criticism is acceptable, but too much is frowned upon, naturally.

-Rukellian
Even a child that receives one bit of praise has the ability to excel in a single talent, and those who receive regular encouragement can feel confidence, achieve success, and become leading members of society. Because they don’t believe they are worthless, they don’t need to raise a fist and have vengeance against fate or the world at large… ~Inspector Lunge

User avatar
Alethan
POWAH!
POWAH!
Posts: 14356
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:50 pm
Location: Midwest
Contact:

Re: A role playing game without rolling

#2 Post by Alethan »

My first thought is that one of the biggest challenges of an RPG is staying alive.

If there is no dice rolling, then how are things like combat mitigated? If it is a given that you survive every combat, then... quite a bit of the challenge is gone from the game. There is no fear of losing your character to temper your actions (or make the game that much more exciting when you take high-risk chances).
Dragon foot. Bamboo pole. Little mouse. Tiny boy.

User avatar
Rukellian
Rider of Rohan
Rider of Rohan
Posts: 5193
Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 11:13 pm
Location: US East Coast

Re: A role playing game without rolling

#3 Post by Rukellian »

Alethan wrote:My first thought is that one of the biggest challenges of an RPG is staying alive.

If there is no dice rolling, then how are things like combat mitigated? If it is a given that you survive every combat, then... quite a bit of the challenge is gone from the game. There is no fear of losing your character to temper your actions (or make the game that much more exciting when you take high-risk chances).
I was worried about this too, so I did some searching and found this. I have never heard of Mortal Coil or how prominent it is, but when I read this guys review on it and how it worked game mechanic-wise, I thought the system would work nicely for something like what I imagined, with some proper modifications of course.

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12403.phtml

The randomized dice rolling system would be replaced with a blind bidding system.
Even a child that receives one bit of praise has the ability to excel in a single talent, and those who receive regular encouragement can feel confidence, achieve success, and become leading members of society. Because they don’t believe they are worthless, they don’t need to raise a fist and have vengeance against fate or the world at large… ~Inspector Lunge

User avatar
Pulpatoon
Rider of Rohan
Rider of Rohan
Posts: 6262
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 7:35 pm
Contact:

Re: A role playing game without rolling

#4 Post by Pulpatoon »

That Mortal Coils review is really intriguing. Are you thinking you'd run that system specifically, or one based on some of it's concepts?

User avatar
Rukellian
Rider of Rohan
Rider of Rohan
Posts: 5193
Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 11:13 pm
Location: US East Coast

Re: A role playing game without rolling

#5 Post by Rukellian »

Pulpatoon wrote:That Mortal Coils review is really intriguing. Are you thinking you'd run that system specifically, or one based on some of it's concepts?
I am in the process of creating a comtemporary world campaign using an OSRIC based rule system (1e clone if I recall). The problem with his this right now is that the class and race systems are proving to be difficult in converting. If I were to create a new rule system all together, I would probably use some of the content stated in Mortal Coils as reference, as well as other rulesets. The key is to create a system that people can find easy to understand and entertaining enough to want to try out. There will have to be some level of flexibility in character creation. But I think the biggest deciding factor here for a person wanting to play such a game is whether the rule system will revolve around a traditional dice roll mechanic or blind bid system. The dice rolling system is already favored amongst a large number if not all of the people here, that and they fully understand how such a system works. But if I were to introduce a blind bidding system rule system for a contemporary campaign, that might prove to be too much of a hassle to learn, and thus scare away some people.

While we are on the topic, a dice rolling system already has an established history with a great many things: inventory tables with dice rolled stats, an action based system revolving around dice roll formulas. Heck, the whole dice rolling system would have to be almost completely reworked in every detail if the dice rolling feature was removed. So much is dependent on dice rolls. I'm probably repeating myself a lot here, and I apologize for that, but trying to create a diceless game system will take a considerable amount of planning and revisioning in order to meet the needs and expectations of the current gaming group here. If I were to do such a thing, It would require having a decent amount of people interested in learning a completely new game system while also understanding that it wilil have a lot of borrowed content from other systems in place; it would not be something truely unique, but unique enough to make it stand apart from the rest of the traditional dice rolling based systems.

Hypothetically speaking, if I were to make/use such a system, it would at least follow the blind bidding tactic. Everything else would still be up in the air.
Even a child that receives one bit of praise has the ability to excel in a single talent, and those who receive regular encouragement can feel confidence, achieve success, and become leading members of society. Because they don’t believe they are worthless, they don’t need to raise a fist and have vengeance against fate or the world at large… ~Inspector Lunge

User avatar
Pulpatoon
Rider of Rohan
Rider of Rohan
Posts: 6262
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 7:35 pm
Contact:

Re: A role playing game without rolling

#6 Post by Pulpatoon »

Personally, I love checking out new systems. I expect a lot of us read more rulesets than we play, and would not consider it onerous to pick up another one.

The thing that has me most excited from the MC review is the collaborative world-building aspect. Which might tie into your desire to tap into the writing talent displayed on the board.

User avatar
Zhym
Rider of Rohan
Rider of Rohan
Posts: 20556
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:14 am

Re: A role playing game without rolling

#7 Post by Zhym »

Did anyone here ever play the Amber RPG back in the day? I never did, but as I recall the big thing about that was that it didn't use dice.

User avatar
Rukellian
Rider of Rohan
Rider of Rohan
Posts: 5193
Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 11:13 pm
Location: US East Coast

Re: A role playing game without rolling

#8 Post by Rukellian »

Zhym wrote:Did anyone here ever play the Amber RPG back in the day? I never did, but as I recall the big thing about that was that it didn't use dice.
I can't say I've heard of it.
Even a child that receives one bit of praise has the ability to excel in a single talent, and those who receive regular encouragement can feel confidence, achieve success, and become leading members of society. Because they don’t believe they are worthless, they don’t need to raise a fist and have vengeance against fate or the world at large… ~Inspector Lunge

User avatar
ken-do-nim
Pathfinder
Pathfinder
Posts: 380
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:59 pm
Location: Mansfield, MA

Re: A role playing game without rolling

#9 Post by ken-do-nim »

I'd like to share the diceless D&D system I came up with. Each player and the DM each have a sheet in front of them with the following entries:

3 sets of boxes 1-4 to simulate 3d4
3 sets of boxes 1-6 to simulate 3d6
2 sets of boxes 1-8 to simulate 2d8
2 sets of boxes 1-10 to simulate 2d10
1 box of 1-12 to simulate 1d12
1 box of 1d20 to simulate 1d20

Here's the premise: instead of rolling to get a result, you simply pick the result from the boxes that are still available. Only when all boxes for a given die size are crossed off are the boxes reset to all be open again. The trick to making this system work is not letting players make say extra skill checks to be able to use up the bad rolls in non-threatening situations.

Let me walk through how this works.

DM: It's time for initiative. I've used up all my 5s and 6s, so I pick a 4.
Players: We still have a 6, so we use that up and win.
Player 1: I attack the troll. I've used up my 17, 18, and 19. I want to save the 20 for a more important situation, but I'll pick the 16. With a +1 from strength that's a 17, did I hit?
DM: just barely
Player 1: phew! Okay, my sword does a d12, and I've used up every number except 3. So I do 3, +1 for strength = 4 damage.
Player 2: I pretty much blew all the good numbers on the last encounter, so I'll throw out a 3 to hit. I know, I miss.
Player 3: Magic missile time. 3 rolls of 1d4+3. I've got only 1, 1, and 2 left, so I do 7 damage. Now all my d4s reset. Next magic missile will do 15!

Does that make sense?

Blackrazor
Pathfinder
Pathfinder
Posts: 328
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:39 am

Re: A role playing game without rolling

#10 Post by Blackrazor »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Dice ... aying_Game

It explains things far better than I could.

Blackrazor
Pathfinder
Pathfinder
Posts: 328
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:39 am

Re: A role playing game without rolling

#11 Post by Blackrazor »

Ken

I guess my gripe would be knowing I am going to whiff or fail my save by choice. Also picking/saving the number becomes the game as one tries to maximize the likelihood of success.

User avatar
Alethan
POWAH!
POWAH!
Posts: 14356
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:50 pm
Location: Midwest
Contact:

Re: A role playing game without rolling

#12 Post by Alethan »

ken-do-nim wrote:I'd like to share the diceless D&D system I came up with. Each player and the DM each have a sheet in front of them with the following entries:

3 sets of boxes 1-4 to simulate 3d4
3 sets of boxes 1-6 to simulate 3d6
2 sets of boxes 1-8 to simulate 2d8
2 sets of boxes 1-10 to simulate 2d10
1 box of 1-12 to simulate 1d12
1 box of 1d20 to simulate 1d20

Here's the premise: instead of rolling to get a result, you simply pick the result from the boxes that are still available. Only when all boxes for a given die size are crossed off are the boxes reset to all be open again. The trick to making this system work is not letting players make say extra skill checks to be able to use up the bad rolls in non-threatening situations.

Let me walk through how this works.

DM: It's time for initiative. I've used up all my 5s and 6s, so I pick a 4.
Players: We still have a 6, so we use that up and win.
Player 1: I attack the troll. I've used up my 17, 18, and 19. I want to save the 20 for a more important situation, but I'll pick the 16. With a +1 from strength that's a 17, did I hit?
DM: just barely
Player 1: phew! Okay, my sword does a d12, and I've used up every number except 3. So I do 3, +1 for strength = 4 damage.
Player 2: I pretty much blew all the good numbers on the last encounter, so I'll throw out a 3 to hit. I know, I miss.
Player 3: Magic missile time. 3 rolls of 1d4+3. I've got only 1, 1, and 2 left, so I do 7 damage. Now all my d4s reset. Next magic missile will do 15!

Does that make sense?
This isn't "not using dice" as much as it is using "pre-rolled dice", with the results being one of every possible option available.

This almost seems worse than rolling dice, to me. You have to actually choose to insert several failed To Hit "non-rolls" in your combat or face the very likely possibility of going 10 or more (and that is with a couple of d20 stat checks thrown in there) combat rounds in a row with a guaranteed failure to hit.

The whole point of having the dice in the game is to remove prejudice, to add the factor of randomness of sorts so the DM doesn't have control of the fate of the characters beyond what is necessary, yes? So... I guess if dice rolling is available, whether it be digitally, as in the Unseen Servant Dice Roller, or with physical dice, my preference would be to use them.
Dragon foot. Bamboo pole. Little mouse. Tiny boy.

User avatar
Rukellian
Rider of Rohan
Rider of Rohan
Posts: 5193
Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 11:13 pm
Location: US East Coast

Re: A role playing game without rolling

#13 Post by Rukellian »

Alethan wrote:
ken-do-nim wrote:I'd like to share the diceless D&D system I came up with. Each player and the DM each have a sheet in front of them with the following entries:

3 sets of boxes 1-4 to simulate 3d4
3 sets of boxes 1-6 to simulate 3d6
2 sets of boxes 1-8 to simulate 2d8
2 sets of boxes 1-10 to simulate 2d10
1 box of 1-12 to simulate 1d12
1 box of 1d20 to simulate 1d20

Here's the premise: instead of rolling to get a result, you simply pick the result from the boxes that are still available. Only when all boxes for a given die size are crossed off are the boxes reset to all be open again. The trick to making this system work is not letting players make say extra skill checks to be able to use up the bad rolls in non-threatening situations.

Let me walk through how this works.

DM: It's time for initiative. I've used up all my 5s and 6s, so I pick a 4.
Players: We still have a 6, so we use that up and win.
Player 1: I attack the troll. I've used up my 17, 18, and 19. I want to save the 20 for a more important situation, but I'll pick the 16. With a +1 from strength that's a 17, did I hit?
DM: just barely
Player 1: phew! Okay, my sword does a d12, and I've used up every number except 3. So I do 3, +1 for strength = 4 damage.
Player 2: I pretty much blew all the good numbers on the last encounter, so I'll throw out a 3 to hit. I know, I miss.
Player 3: Magic missile time. 3 rolls of 1d4+3. I've got only 1, 1, and 2 left, so I do 7 damage. Now all my d4s reset. Next magic missile will do 15!

Does that make sense?
This isn't "not using dice" as much as it is using "pre-rolled dice", with the results being one of every possible option available.

This almost seems worse than rolling dice, to me. You have to actually choose to insert several failed To Hit "non-rolls" in your combat or face the very likely possibility of going 10 or more (and that is with a couple of d20 stat checks thrown in there) combat rounds in a row with a guaranteed failure to hit.

The whole point of having the dice in the game is to remove prejudice, to add the factor of randomness of sorts so the DM doesn't have control of the fate of the characters beyond what is necessary, yes? So... I guess if dice rolling is available, whether it be digitally, as in the Unseen Servant Dice Roller, or with physical dice, my preference would be to use them.
This.

I originally started this topic in the hopes of finding a system that would take the emphasis off of relying on random rolls and having more control over the situation a character may find itself in. The blind bidding one came close to what I had in mind, but the one ken-do-nim mentioned seemed a bit off to me. Alethan seemed to nail it on the head with this response. So with all that said, I will probably stick to what I know best for now and do dice rolling for my campaigns. However, I also don't alway like to be at the mercy of a string of bad rolls from a roller as well. I guess that cannot be helped too much, can it? :)
Even a child that receives one bit of praise has the ability to excel in a single talent, and those who receive regular encouragement can feel confidence, achieve success, and become leading members of society. Because they don’t believe they are worthless, they don’t need to raise a fist and have vengeance against fate or the world at large… ~Inspector Lunge

Blackrazor
Pathfinder
Pathfinder
Posts: 328
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:39 am

Re: A role playing game without rolling

#14 Post by Blackrazor »

Add a cumulative +2 to every combat roll after the second whiff until player gets a hit. Call it a determination bonus :)

User avatar
Dizlexus
Ranger Knight
Ranger Knight
Posts: 1651
Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:07 am
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: A role playing game without rolling

#15 Post by Dizlexus »

I think you should hand pick the best writers and start a traditional campaign. I would love to see an all-star line-up of creative persons who can write.
All GMs are evil.
What foulness goads your laughter? (Pulpatoon, 03/26/14)

User avatar
Rukellian
Rider of Rohan
Rider of Rohan
Posts: 5193
Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 11:13 pm
Location: US East Coast

Re: A role playing game without rolling

#16 Post by Rukellian »

Dizlexus wrote:I think you should hand pick the best writers and start a traditional campaign. I would love to see an all-star line-up of creative persons who can write.
Heh, very tempting. I can see it now, the specs of a regular campaign on the recruitment thread, but with a catch; each person must submit their own writing piece to the DM to see if their creative skills would fit the bill. This would be a form of elimination to weed out the people who will only put in enough effort to get by.
Even a child that receives one bit of praise has the ability to excel in a single talent, and those who receive regular encouragement can feel confidence, achieve success, and become leading members of society. Because they don’t believe they are worthless, they don’t need to raise a fist and have vengeance against fate or the world at large… ~Inspector Lunge

User avatar
Alethan
POWAH!
POWAH!
Posts: 14356
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:50 pm
Location: Midwest
Contact:

Re: A role playing game without rolling

#17 Post by Alethan »

Rukellian wrote:
Dizlexus wrote:I think you should hand pick the best writers and start a traditional campaign. I would love to see an all-star line-up of creative persons who can write.
Heh, very tempting. I can see it now, the specs of a regular campaign on the recruitment thread, but with a catch; each person must submit their own writing piece to the DM to see if their creative skills would fit the bill. This would be a form of elimination to weed out the people who will only put in enough effort to get by.
Obviously, the below is just my opinion and should be taken as such...

Playing or DMing an RPG should be a very personal experience in my book; if you're "dialing in" a game with the minimal effort possible, you should seriously consider dropping it.

Personally, I think DMs SHOULD test applicants to make sure they fit into their game. Not to figure out who the "best writers" are, though, because what one considers good writing is subjective. For example, I think Stephanie Meyer's writing is compete and utter shite. But obviously SOMEONE likes it, because her books have netted over $2 billion in sales.

But you should make some attempt at setting up a game that isn't doomed to fail because of party dynamics. Not every player is going to work well with every DM (or even every other player). I know there are certain DMs out there whose games I would do HORRIBLY in, so I don't even consider joining them. It isn't because I can't write; it's because my play style does not go well with their DM style (they use a signature of, "KILL ALL PCs!!!" for example, or brag about how many TPKs they've caused in their games). Or because I've followed the game for a while and I know my play style wouldn't do well with some of the other players in the game. Not a big deal; there are other games out there.

Party cohesion is an important aspect of gaming. Thinking back to when I commonly did tabletop gaming, some of the worst sessions I attended were where these twin brothers were also playing; our personalities clashed (mostly because they dicked around too much and fought with each other too much - in and out of character - and it was just one distraction after another; the game was rarely enjoyable. But if they didn't show up for the next session, and everyone else was the same, I'd have a great time. In FtF games, I always tried to get together with people who I enjoyed gaming with.

Now, I understand a DM can't easily determine if players are going to all get along. But I just don't see many DMs put any thought into how a player is going to do with their game style, aside from whether or not the player can meet the posting rate requirement.

Certainly, attempting to build a cohesive party isn't a requirement for a game; but I think it might help to make a better one.
Dragon foot. Bamboo pole. Little mouse. Tiny boy.

User avatar
tooleychris
Rider of Rohan
Rider of Rohan
Posts: 3578
Joined: Wed May 01, 2013 2:07 pm
Location: Just west of the future site of Defiance.

Re: A role playing game without rolling

#18 Post by tooleychris »

Alethan wrote: Now, I understand a DM can't easily determine if players are going to all get along. But I just don't see many DMs put any thought into how a player is going to do with their game style, aside from whether or not the player can meet the posting rate requirement.

Certainly, attempting to build a cohesive party isn't a requirement for a game; but I think it might help to make a better one.
Almost everything the mighty Alethan said in his post is right on, IMO.
However, I don't really think judging a players "ability " to play should be too heavily considered in allowing them to play. Outside of the guy who is constantly flaming or trolling just to get attention, everyone should have an opportunity to hopefully learn by watching how other players interact with one another. The right DM will gently nudge, drop hints, then flat spell it out, then punish, then ban a player who isn't playing what the DM, and Perhaps other players, feel is appropriate. We get a lot of new peeps here who claim to have not rolled a die in years. I'd hate to think they were black flagged from future games before they get their bearings.

User avatar
Alethan
POWAH!
POWAH!
Posts: 14356
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:50 pm
Location: Midwest
Contact:

Re: A role playing game without rolling

#19 Post by Alethan »

tooleychris wrote: Almost everything the mighty Alethan said in his post is right on, IMO.
However, I don't really think judging a players "ability " to play should be too heavily considered in allowing them to play. Outside of the guy who is constantly flaming or trolling just to get attention, everyone should have an opportunity to hopefully learn by watching how other players interact with one another. The right DM will gently nudge, drop hints, then flat spell it out, then punish, then ban a player who isn't playing what the DM, and Perhaps other players, feel is appropriate. We get a lot of new peeps here who claim to have not rolled a die in years. I'd hate to think they were black flagged from future games before they get their bearings.
Hmmm... I don't recall saying you should judge someone's ability to play before letting them into your game. I think having a mixture of playing skills in a party is great! As a player, I STILL learn new things all the time! And it doesn't matter to me if I'm learning it from someone whose been playing for 10 years or 10 minutes! Making sure your game has cohesion has little to do with a player's level of play; it has more to do with things like personalities and gaming goals.

It is important for a GM to have a good understanding of what they require in their own games and then make those requirements known to the players.

Are you a rules lawyer? Do you play by the book 99.5% of the time? There is nothing wrong with that if you do - play how you like and to each his own and all that. But having a player who constantly challenges rules and asks for changes or wants to incorporate house rule modifications into the game is going to quickly get on that DM's last nerve. It wouldn't be a good mix.

What if you ONLY play assassins. Or half-ogres without any scruples. Again, there's nothing wrong with that! I know a few people who are like that. But you'll want to know ahead of time if the DM does not allow assassins or any demihumans aside from the standard before you spend any time rolling up a character. Or maybe the DM requests players in his game are always "the good guys". Your half-ogre with just a handful of morals isn't going to fit in very well.

Some DMs have posting preferences, like color-coding IC and OOC text, starting each post off with specific character information, or posting frequency. If a player can't be bothered to follow these guidelines, then, again, it's probably not the right game for them.

For a more personal reference, I was in a PbP game once where I quickly found out that I didn't mesh well with the DM; I struggled with his DMing style. He would make us roll dice for what seemed like even the simplest of actions. And he would periodically send me PMs second-guessing my IC posts of my character actions, often telling me I should consider doing something else or that I've assumed the wrong thing, based on the content of his posts. I tried to go along with him as best I could, but after giving it my best for two more weeks, I realized I wasn't having any fun in his game. So I dropped out. A few questions to the players about their playing style, or a few statements about his DMing style, early on in the recruitment process might have saved me from wasting a month of my time.

The point is, not every player is going to mesh well with every DM. Or with every other player. But there are steps that a DM can take to ensure he gathers together a group of like-minded players (or, at least, players who won't drive him insane) to where everyone will have a good time playing.
Dragon foot. Bamboo pole. Little mouse. Tiny boy.

User avatar
tooleychris
Rider of Rohan
Rider of Rohan
Posts: 3578
Joined: Wed May 01, 2013 2:07 pm
Location: Just west of the future site of Defiance.

Re: A role playing game without rolling

#20 Post by tooleychris »

Apologies If I misunderstood. Well said!

Post Reply

Return to “RPG theory”