The specifics of dual-classing

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Rukellian
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The specifics of dual-classing

#1 Post by Rukellian »

I would like to start a topic on dual-classing in order to hopefully get some questions answered. I figure this would be the right place to start it.
Don't confuse this topic with multi-classing. Dual and multi classing are two different ways of using multiple classes. Humans are only able to dual class, meaning they start off as one class, and then when reaching a certain level in that class, they stop and switch to a new one (all assuming requisite ability scores are in place for the new class). They would still retain the old class up to a certain level, but will focus on and be restricted by the new class and all of its details until reaching the same level as the first class previously chosen. Once that happens, they can make full use of the previous class with all restrictions lifted, and still focus on developing their new class. This can be done multiple times (assuming requisite ability scores meet the new class standards).

Now Multi-classing is a bit different; it is reserved for demihumans. When multi classing, two class are worked on simultaneously, but only recieve experience at half the rate (the experience recieved is being split half and half between the two classes). This is as far as I will go with info on multi classing, just wanted to differentiate the two before I continue.

Most of the finer points on the dual classing system can be found on purpleworm.org under the playerhandbook, but there are a few things I am having a hard time wrapping my head around. Firstly, if a warrior class human switches over to a wizard class, will the weapon proficiencies previously used (like say mace and longsword) carry over to the new class? Or will the human warrior be restricted to the weapon proficiencies of his new class (dagger, slingshot, ect.). While on the topic of weapon proficiencies, do these proficiences count as warrior class abilities, or would they be differentiated when using the phrase class ability? The dual class system clearly states that if you use the abilities of a previous class when trying to learn a new one, you will be penalized accordingly (punishment for regressing to former class strengths too early in the dual-class system). If the weapon proficiencies of the warrior class would be considered his/her abilities, then I could see that being applied to the latter statement, but it doesn't clearly state that in 2e AD&D.

Any input from those with dual-classing experience would be much appreciated!
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Re: The specifics of dual-classing

#2 Post by Alethan »

Per the 2e rules on Dual Class Benefits and Restrictions, 2nd paragraph...
... he starts over in a new class, at 1st level with 0 experience points, but he does retain his previous Hit Dice and hit points. He gains the abilities, and must abide by all of the restrictions, of the new class.
You keep your hit points and hit dice from the earlier class. Everything else follows the new class guidelines.

Per the 2e rules on Dual Class Benefits and Restrictions, 3rd paragraph...
This is not to imply that a dual-class human forgets everything he knew before; he still has, at his fingertips, all the knowledge, abilities, and proficiencies of his old class. But if he uses any of his previous class's abilities during an encounter, he earns no experience for that encounter and only half experience for the adventure. The only values that can be carried over from the previous class without restriction are the character's Hit Dice and hit points. The character is penalized for using his old attack or saving throw numbers, weapons or armor that are now prohibited, and any special abilities of the old class that are not also abilities of the new class. (The character is trying to learn new ways to do things; by slipping back to his old methods, he has set back his learning in his new character class.)
So... You do not forget the knowledge of such things as weapon proficiencies, but you cannot use them without severe penalty.
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Re: The specifics of dual-classing

#3 Post by Rukellian »

Hmmm, thanks for pointing that out Alethan. I alway seem to overlook something when reading handbooks. Tis why I am constantly reading over them again and again. I always pick up on something new that I skipped or overlook heh.
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Re: The specifics of dual-classing

#4 Post by dmw71 »

Personally, I think those by-the-book rules are way too strict. Granted, I never really think of dual classes since I've never attempted to create one, but if I were to add rules on the subject,I would definitely modify the rules as printed.


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Re: The specifics of dual-classing

#5 Post by Vargr1105 »

Personally, I allow Humans to multiclass in any combination available to any other race. We keep being told again and again humans are the most versatile race so it makes no sense having them restricted to a single class and a baroque and complex dual-class system.

"Dual-classing" for me means obtaining a second class in-game or changing careers altoghether, which is available to everyone.

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Re: The specifics of dual-classing

#6 Post by Rukellian »

Ah, so ultimately its up to the DM making use of the dual-class system that has the final say in what goes into it. Glad to hear it. Though, when in doubt, I usually try to stay true to the book, just my fallback thing is all.

One of the reasons why I brought this topic up was because I am in the process of getting multiple characters ready for different campaign scenarios, one of which was going to be a human warrior that eventually switches his class over to that of a necromancer, for reasons his own.
Depending on the DM's preferences, I guess this setup could either by very simple or as complex as he/she wants it to be. It would probably be just a matter of setting up a proper restriction system and penalties that go with it.
Vargr1105 wrote:Personally, I allow Humans to multiclass in any combination available to any other race. We keep being told again and again humans are the most versatile race so it makes no sense having them restricted to a single class and a baroque and complex dual-class system.

"Dual-classing" for me means obtaining a second class in-game or changing careers altoghether, which is available to everyone.
Or like how Vargr1105 pointed out, one might just scrap the whole dual-class system and allow a human to multi-class. Either way, I'm glad to hear other viewpoints on this!
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Re: The specifics of dual-classing

#7 Post by dmw71 »

Rukellian wrote: Or like how Vargr1105 pointed out, one might just scrap the whole dual-class system and allow a human to multi-class. Either way, I'm glad to hear other viewpoints on this!
The nice thing is, as a DM, you can pretty much do whatever you'd like. ;)

I like to think of the existing rules as a framework. Keep the rules from this default set that you like, eliminate what you don't, and modify others that aren't exactly as you'd like them.

For instance, when setting up my game, I was only familiar with 1E. I was participating as a player in my first 2E game and familiarizing myself with those rules, which I found myself liking. So my 1E game shifted to a modified 2E game, but I also worked in things from other editions and some house rules as well.

I built a set of custom rules for a game that I know I would like to play as a player, which I think is important. While I'm fairly happy with my game, there are probably things I'll change (and will probably work into the next game I end up running).

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Re: The specifics of dual-classing

#8 Post by Hrafn »

dmw71 wrote:Personally, I think those by-the-book rules are way too strict. Granted, I never really think of dual classes since I've never attempted to create one, but if I were to add rules on the subject,I would definitely modify the rules as printed.
They really aren't, though.

As a dual class character, you are level 1 and being backed up by a cadre of level 5+ friends. If your fighter decides to dual into thief, you lose that sweet attack bonus, but you've got a cleric, thief, And magic user setting you up for sneak attacks, AND by the time they all reach level 6+, you'll have had enough XP to level a few times; if you take routine breaks to study with your party thief, you'll be back to full potential in no time flat.

This is especially true when you have multicast charcters in the party. Had a game once, with some loose structures. We worked our way up from 2nd level, as a party of Fighter/Magic User and Fighter/Cleric/Magic user and Thief/Cleric/Magic user. We got a new guy who the DM have XP equal to 80% of the rest of the party – he showed up as a dual class paladin wizard rogue cleric bard, all level 10! It was phenomenally eye opening.
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Re: The specifics of dual-classing

#9 Post by AQuebman »

My only issue personally with Dual Classing is that it never made sense to me why you would forget how to use your previous abilities. Like if I switch careers from IT to Carpentry i'm not going to suddenly forget how to use a computer until I become a master carpenter. Now I know it's all in the name of balance but that's why I personally think dual classing doesn't fit right, there's something I would definitely tweak about it to make it feel a bit more realistic.

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Re: The specifics of dual-classing

#10 Post by dmw71 »

Hrafn wrote:
dmw71 wrote:Personally, I think those by-the-book rules are way too strict. Granted, I never really think of dual classes since I've never attempted to create one, but if I were to add rules on the subject,I would definitely modify the rules as printed.
They really aren't, though.
AQuebman wrote:My only issue personally with Dual Classing is that it never made sense to me why you would forget how to use your previous abilities. Like if I switch careers from IT to Carpentry i'm not going to suddenly forget how to use a computer until I become a master carpenter. Now I know it's all in the name of balance but that's why I personally think dual classing doesn't fit right, there's something I would definitely tweak about it to make it feel a bit more realistic.
AQuebman beat me to it, and even used a similar example to what I was thinking.

A level 5 accountant, specialized in Microsoft Excel, decides to try their hand in real estate. Because they decide to use their previous Excel skills to create an advanced spreadsheet to assist in their analysis of potential properties, they, in their new real estate agent role, would get zero experience points when they close on one of the properties their spreadsheet identified?

Truthfully, I haven't really dedicated much thought to this subject, but I immediately took issue with the experience point penalty stated in the by-the-book rules.

I think I have a bigger issue with the whole multi-class/dual-class thing to begin with... but that's another story.


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Re: The specifics of dual-classing

#11 Post by Alethan »

The main problem with allowing "some" use of the previous class skills is that it is now a subjective matter, vs. an objective one. If the player disagrees with the GM's ruling about reducing XP because of too many previous class skills coming into play during a session, then you suddenly have an arbitration/discussion/argument (i.e. game drama) on your hands; that doesn't always end well.

From a game-managing perspective, it is much easier to say what is absolutely allowed or absolutely not allowed and be able to determine exactly what that is (or isn't) through specific dice rolls or skills used or material things (armour worn, weapons wielded, etc.) possessed/worn.
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Re: The specifics of dual-classing

#13 Post by Vargr1105 »

AQuebman wrote:I say axe the whole multi-class /dual class thing personally for a more open ended approach
Which will be?

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Re: The specifics of dual-classing

#14 Post by Hrafn »

AQuebman wrote:My only issue personally with Dual Classing is that it never made sense to me why you would forget how to use your previous abilities. Like if I switch careers from IT to Carpentry i'm not going to suddenly forget how to use a computer until I become a master carpenter. Now I know it's all in the name of balance but that's why I personally think dual classing doesn't fit right, there's something I would definitely tweak about it to make it feel a bit more realistic.
It makes perfect sense actually! If you use your phenomenal cosmic wizard powers while trying to sneak into a castle, you're not flexing your thief muscles very much. It's basically the same as 3.X's level adjustment.

It kinda bears out, too. Real life examples of people who rely on natural talent show a slower growth rate, compensated for by having a higher initial skill. You have to have a desire for improvement; a fighter who wants to win with his clerical powers isn't focused on learning fighter skills, he's focused on getting through the day.
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Re: The specifics of dual-classing

#15 Post by AQuebman »

but you wouldn't lose your abilities completely. For instance Michael Jordan went and trained to play Baseball for a few years correct? Did he lose his ability to play basketball? No absolutely not. He certainly didn't reach the same level in baseball as he reached in basketball and when he went back to doing the former he was just as good if not better.

I've come to a point where I think balance in tabletop games is stupid and thus prefer a game that is less numbers crunchy. 3.5 has caused a whole group of players who care about the numbers crunch and it's ruined the game in many aspects for me. The game's not fair and really it shouldn't be but if your mindset is where it should be for a group adventure there is a place to be had for every character even if they aren't as powerful as the wizard or cleric.

Dual Classing was a poor way to try and make humans feel less generic while the other races had something special about them. It's why i've been so strongly drawn to DCC because it makes life difficult for all classes including the all powerful casters without having to become too rules and numbers crunchy. I don't have an answer for dual classing because that is DM specific I don't think you can come up with an answer all of us will prefer I just know as a DM personally I would axe it. Then again i've always been rather open for multi-classing or character choice so I tend to throw out overly restrictive rules that don't feel like they have a purpose other than to be old fuddy duddy rules lawyers.

That includes monks... there are too many old badly dubbed kung fu movies about untrained nobodies becoming kung fu masters for me to believe you can't hop around even in something like that.

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Re: The specifics of dual-classing

#16 Post by Hrafn »

AQuebman wrote:but you wouldn't lose your abilities completely. For instance Michael Jordan went and trained to play Baseball for a few years correct? Did he lose his ability to play basketball? No absolutely not. He certainly didn't reach the same level in baseball as he reached in basketball and when he went back to doing the former he was just as good if not better.
That's true. But really, you don't "lose" your old class abilities, you're treated as such. It even ahs clauses for what happens when you use them! That should be proof plenty they are still there :)
I've come to a point where I think balance in tabletop games is stupid and thus prefer a game that is less numbers crunchy. 3.5 has caused a whole group of players who care about the numbers crunch and it's ruined the game in many aspects for me. The game's not fair and really it shouldn't be but if your mindset is where it should be for a group adventure there is a place to be had for every character even if they aren't as powerful as the wizard or cleric.
Hmm. I've seen that, but only in internet stuffs. in my home games, we call balance by table. We even did some math, and found out our usual method of attribute generation (four d6 per ability, drop the worst, reroll 1s, roll seven attributes and keep the best six, arrange to taste) was about on par with a 72 Point buy along with a free +4 LA. We had the same relative pwoer level, and had the same relative fun, as when we played "by the books" but a lot more freedom to do whatever the hell we watned! We had a draconic fey touched chaosite lillend, a phrenic amberite human psychic warrior/fighter, a winged phrenic human monk, and a draconic half dragon human barbarian, and it played pretty close to the book normal.

Online? Yes. Online people are butts. Online people are the ones who say the following scenario*;
Karroneth readies his fists, and charges. "Elivaris! Shield up! Dragon-killer, now!" He screams, breaking into a full-on run. The knight, startled for a moment, obliges, lifitng his shield above his head, horizontal like a visor. Perfect.

Karr hits Elivaris like a hammer, left foot wheeling up onto the edge of the shield lightning fast, springing off. He spins his arms, his legs, free-running in the sky, before his free hand catches the diving manticore. A quick grab, and a kick, send him soaring off and above, barely past the gnashing teeth and flicking tail. with the extra momentum from the second jump, he sails higher, higher... And lashes out like a serpent, sinking his fingers into the scruff of another manticore's throat. Twisting, Karr torques it out of the air, kicking off of it's flailing body and somersaults back onto the first aerial beast, jack-hammering it's head into a nose dive with a flurry of kicks, lansing a mere second after the fell beast and driving his elbow into what remains of it's thorax.
Is just "a melee character moving and attacking, it's so boring compared to what a wizard can do!" :|
I think folks who say that aren't worth listening to, personally. :lol:





* A fun move on his part! It was a charge, and he had a "straight line" to the target because it doesn't count vertical movement like jumps or climbs, so long as they arent "difficult terrain". So KArroneth's player was all "I'll show you how a monk 'sucks'!", charged, lept off an ally's shield for eight with a running jump, grabbed and jumped off of a manticore (!!!) Hit it with an unarmed attack, tripped it out of the air, used the wall kick ability of his jump skill, landed on the previous manticore, kicked it twice in the head, and used a trip for his last attack, barely succeeding.

it was. So. Awesome!
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Re: The specifics of dual-classing

#17 Post by AQuebman »

Well I think this comes from my buddy who usually DM's for us who is probably the best gamebreaker i've ever seen. He destroys the 3.5 rules and anyone else playing with him feels like a wuss in comparison. It's why DCC is my game of choice because there really doesn't seem to be a way to break that game unless you do something custom and then that's your own fault for making something broken.

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Re: The specifics of dual-classing

#18 Post by Hrafn »

Blegh, why? It's no fun to do that. Power is whatever, high or low. It's the discrepancy between players that sucks.

Aye, playing with folks wh blitz the power curve and leave you stranded - That is a sucky game to play in!
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Re: The specifics of dual-classing

#19 Post by Alethan »

Hrafn wrote:Power is whatever, high or low. It's the discrepancy between players that sucks.
This.

As long as the playing field is level between the players, it doesn't matter if they are all powerful or all fairly normal; the game can be adjusted to suite.

That is, I think, what the limitations on a by-the-book dual class character are for; to keep the playing field level.
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Re: The specifics of dual-classing

#20 Post by AQuebman »

Alethan wrote:
Hrafn wrote:Power is whatever, high or low. It's the discrepancy between players that sucks.
This.

As long as the playing field is level between the players, it doesn't matter if they are all powerful or all fairly normal; the game can be adjusted to suite.

That is, I think, what the limitations on a by-the-book dual class character are for; to keep the playing field level.
The difference is he's better at math then the rest of us and can run the numbers very quickly in his head and he enjoys that aspect of games. This is why he's 99% of the time our DM because he's a great DM he's just way above the rest of us as a player and tends to not enjoy playing a game where he can't achieve that goal.

Except in 4E we all broke that game wide open like a coconut.

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