Comparison of House Rules

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dmw71
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Comparison of House Rules

#1 Post by dmw71 »

Alethan wrote:I would be happy with a +1 To Hit bonus when dual wielding, with primary hand hitting on an even roll and off-hand hitting on an odd roll.

And both hitting on a 20.

(I can't take credit for this suggestion. It is one of the rules in the rules-light PbP game I play. You can use a two-handed weapon for +1 damage, a shield for +1 AC, or two weapons for +1 To Hit.)
I'm trying to understand that. In 1E, when you use two weapons at the same time, both weapons attack with a penalty (-2 primary, -4 secondary). The rule your other game uses, I guess, is proof that a double negative really does resolve into a positive. ;)
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Re: OOC Thread

#2 Post by Alethan »

dmw71 wrote:
Alethan wrote:I would be happy with a +1 To Hit bonus when dual wielding, with primary hand hitting on an even roll and off-hand hitting on an odd roll.

And both hitting on a 20.

(I can't take credit for this suggestion. It is one of the rules in the rules-light PbP game I play. You can use a two-handed weapon for +1 damage, a shield for +1 AC, or two weapons for +1 To Hit.)
I'm trying to understand that. In 1E, when you use two weapons at the same time, both weapons attack with a penalty (-2 primary, -4 secondary). The rule your other game uses, I guess, is proof that a double negative really does resolve into a positive. ;)
Moving discussion over to a new thread in the House Rules topic so we stop hijacking acererak's House Rules thread...

I guess what I don't understand is the need to compare everything to 1e rules.

The problem is that you're trying to compare apples to oranges. One set of player rules (Gary Gygax's First Edition of AD&D) is a 126 page Player's Manual. The other set of player rules (Ways Of The Earth's Eyre Tor v6.2) is two sides of a single 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper. (And I believe there is a second page that lists equipment and prices and such.)

126 pages vs. 3 pages

There is going to be a TON of differences between the two.

The 1e DMG is 230 pages. I think WOTE has all of his DM rules on a similar two sides of one page of paper. Again, there are going to be some huge differences between how these two games are run behind the scenes.

So I don't think you can properly compare the two. Or, rather, you shouldn't compare the two. It's like comparing Monopoly and Candy Land. Both games are fun to play (don't even try and tell me you don't like Candy Land!). One takes a bit more time to set up, picking a banker and passing out money and organizing the land titles and stacking the Chance and Community Chest cards and so on. The other is a bit more simple. Four markers at the start and a stack of cards and a d6spinner. Go.

Another question. If you're going to try and understand why one set of rules isn't like another set that you know and play so well, then don't you have to understand the original rules? OK, so why is it that dual wielding weapons in 1e is a -2 To Hit penalty for your primary weapon and a -4 To Hit penalty for your secondary weapon? Is this information coming from real life experiences? If I walk out of a bar into an ally, and some guy comes at me with a crow bar in one hand and a knife in the other, am I going to feel more secure, knowing the FOOL has a 10% less chance of hitting me with the crow bar and a 20% less chance of hitting me with the knife because he decided to wield them both? No. It's just some House Rule make up by a guy named Gary. Just so happens this is a house rule that hundreds of thousands of people have adopted and used over the last 40 years. Maybe Gary's assumption is that the person who is dual wielding has absolutely no experience in such a thing.

Maybe WOTE approaches it differently. We can have a character who has some rudimentary training in using a sword and shield or a huge 2H claymore, but there's no chance at all they could have learned just enough knowledge about wielding two weapons at once that they can be pretty good at it? Why can't we make that assumption?

For me, the FUN part of playing an RPG is PLAYING the RPG. Not spending lots of time trying to figure out mechanics. Or why we use certain mechanics. Or why the mechanics are different from one game to the next. Just tell me what the mechanics for the game I'm playing are and that's what I'll use. You have custom mechanics? House rules? That's fine. Tell me what they are and I'll use them. And if I find that I'm not enjoying myself with your game, then I'll find a different game with different rules (or a different DM). I won't tell you how to run your game or what rules to use. I will, however, hold you to your rules!

(And I DO have a problem with a DM who has *secret* house rules and he springs them on you after it's too late (i.e. you made a decision based on not knowing a rule and after you take that action, the DM says, "Ok, now THIS happens because I have a house rule for that I didn't tell you about." And if you'd known about the house rule, you would have never taken that action. That's a method Player Killer DMs do. I don't play games where the DM thinks it is me vs. them.)

(And don't get me wrong, I LOVE character creation. But I love it in any form, be it 1e or Eyre Tor or Cthulhu rules or whatever rules.)

For WOTE, the idea is simple. Make your character. Play the game. Don't spend a whole lot of time fussing with a bunch of rules because, guess what? You might be making a new character pretty soon. You can go anywhere in his game. And he doesn't scale dungeons. If your party of first level characters wants to hunt down a vampire, and they manage to figure out where he is, they're probably going to die when they fight him. 5 1HD newbies aren't going to take down a 7HD vampire. So...

Time to roll up new characters! Good thing it doesn't take long! Maybe this time you won't go tracking down a vampire when you're first level, you bunch of noggins! "Not fair! You GAVE us the story hook! You said the priest was worried there might be a vampire attacking villagers!" If I gave you the keys to a Indy 500 race car and said you could, if you wanted to, race that car in the actual Indy 500 in 5 minutes, with absolutely no further training or knowledge than what you have now, would you do it? I sure as hell wouldn't. If you did, I bet the outcome wouldn't be good.

So when you're building your character, you're going to spend less than 5 minutes doing it. He gives you the dice rolls, in order. You can make one adjustment (replace any one dice roll with a 6, as long as it doesn't give you 18 for that stat). Then you pick your race/class, etc. When it comes to selecting your gear, you have three options to consider:
Do I want my character to be harder to hit? Then carry a shield.
Do I want my character to do more damage? Then carry a 2H weapon.
Do I want my character to have the chance to hit more often? Then dual wield weapons.

There are drawbacks to each. For example, if you dual wield, and you manage to hit your target, there is an even chance your off-hand weapon hits and you do less damage. But then every now and again you roll a 20 and BOTH weapons hit. And that's pretty cool.

Do I understand why or how he came about his rules? Nope. I do happen to know he's refined these rules over the last 20 years. (It's version 6.2, after all.) So I assume he's spent a LONG time making the perfect rules for the kind of game he wants to run. So if I want to play his game, I go by his rules.

And I'm cool with that.

And it's a hell of a lot of fun.
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Re: Comparison of House Rules

#3 Post by Alethan »

One more thing...

I don't think WOTE's rules are better than 1e rules or B/X rules or any other rules out there.

They're just different rules.
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Re: OOC Thread

#4 Post by dmw71 »

Alethan wrote:I guess what I don't understand is the need to compare everything to 1e rules.
As always, your points are all valid. I may argue they're a bit out of context in this specific instance, but valid nonetheless.


In this case, I wasn't knowingly comparing any version of D&D to 'Ways Of The Earth's Eyre Tor v6.2' (or any other game for that matter). In fact, I've never even heard of the game you're quoting the rules from. I simply referenced AD&D when discussing a rules question in a Basic D&D game which, at least in my opinion, is somewhat valid considering the author of AD&D (circa 1978) is also the author of the Basic set of rules we're using (circa 1981).


Seeing as how we are playing D&D, and the rules do allude to the fact that a character cannot have more than a single attack per round, I would be of the opinion that attacking (not fighting, Xaxyx) with multiple weapons in a round isn't possible. That said, I am perfectly fine if the DM wants to implement a house rule to address this, or any other ambiguous topic... including the one you proposed. :D


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Re: Comparison of House Rules

#5 Post by Alethan »

Sorry, Dave. I didn't mean to come off so abrasively. :)

Rough day at work with <4 hours sleep.
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Re: Comparison of House Rules

#6 Post by Alethan »

And... there's this whole bit where I could have sworn I'd had a discussion about WOTE's rules on the forum with someone.

Turns out it was a different forum.

Can't wait for the wife to come home so dadda can get some sleep.
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Re: Comparison of House Rules

#7 Post by dmw71 »

Alethan wrote:Sorry, Dave. I didn't mean to come off so abrasively.
Not a problem. At all. Not surprisingly, you did raise some very valid points and pose a strong argument.

Hope you get the sleep you crave!


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Re: Comparison of House Rules

#8 Post by rredmond »

Two things:
1. Where can I find these Ways Of The Earth's Eyre rulesets?
2. I compare everything to 1E.

:D :mrgreen: :D
This is a game about killing things and taking their stuff so you can become more powerful in order to kill bigger things and take even better stuff.
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Re: Comparison of House Rules

#9 Post by Alethan »

Ron, I know WOTE is working on publishing some of the Eyre Tor information and has procured copyright rights for some drawings and such. Let me check with him before I Dropbox it, if you don't mind?

I think he passes out the Player Reference sheet freely to anyone who asks, but not the GM Reference (which might be what he is publishing).

I just have the copy of the Player's Reference, in any case.

I've shot off an e-mail to him. I'll let you know as soon as I've heard something. Might not be until the weekend, though, as he's from Australia, so... it's like middle of the night there right now.

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Re: Comparison of House Rules

#10 Post by Vargr1105 »

What is this "Ways Of The Earth's Eyre Tor v6.2" thing you keep mentioning? I attempted to Google it but got not results.

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Re: Comparison of House Rules

#11 Post by rredmond »

Vargr1105 wrote:What is this "Ways Of The Earth's Eyre Tor v6.2" thing you keep mentioning? I attempted to Google it but got not results.
Hey, I did the same. And my googling skills has found me the rare TSR/judges guild/etc PDF. But it sounds like this is a homebrew that Ethan is checking if this guy wants to disseminate.
This is a game about killing things and taking their stuff so you can become more powerful in order to kill bigger things and take even better stuff.
Alethan: I'm good with NOT pressing our luck this time.
mjulius: That's how I know I'm home.
Pulpatoon: The whole point of PbP is to take the scheduling pressure off the game. We're just chatty because we're so eager!
Scott308: ...everyone should be reminded of just how wonderful the people they play games with here can be in real life.
Leitz: Quality and quantity wise, I think US is the best I've seen.
Paladin: I can promise terror, glory, and riches...or a quick and brutal death.
Inferno: Come on! That's was Vicar's Head, a completely different doomed village!
Rex: I can move to the wait list to let someone else into the game.

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Re: Comparison of House Rules

#12 Post by Alethan »

Eyre Tor is a one-page (two-sided) player's reference for the rule system as written/modified by Ways Of The Earth (user name from the ODD74 forum).

I received more details from him regarding his player reference sheet and his rules under development...

Here is a link to the Eyre Tor Player Reference:
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?hy080eiby5b4y9m

He said he would prefer if people would use the direct download so he had a slightly better idea of how many people have downloaded it.

He also mentioned his Referee's Reference guild has grown to about 66 pages and it is basically a completely revised Men & Magic. He said being published in its current form probably isn't going to happen, but most of the content will make its way into a DD publication on something based on a campaign he's developed called "Hinterlands".

Here is a link to the PbP Hinterlands game he runs on the ODD74 forums. You're going to need a bit of time if you want to read through it from beginning to end, though. It spans more than two years of pretty frequent (3-5 times/week on average) updates.

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