CON Bonus Interpretation

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Alethan
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CON Bonus Interpretation

#1 Post by Alethan »

My attitude, when it comes to rule interpretation, is somewhat Gygaxian in nature. These characters are exceptional. They are "better" than the average person. If the rule is somewhat ambiguous, and can be interpreted multiple ways, then I tend to rule to the benefit of the character.

Take the CON bonus, for example...
1. It says the bonus applies for each Hit Die you roll; I believe this to be regardless of whether you're keeping that roll as is or dividing the roll by two.
2. I also see the CON bonus as just that - a bonus, to be applied after any averaging is done.

1. With my interpretation, if I were rolling up a ranger and I had a CON of 15, I would start off with a +2 CON bonus to my HP (+1 CON Bonus per Hit Die rolled). If I were rolling up a ranger and I had a CON of 17, I would start off with a +6 CON bonus to my HP (+3 CON Bonus per Hit Die rolled). I see it no differently if you're starting off with a multi-class player.

I don't think the CON bonus can be fairly divided between the two classes. It might work out ok at Chargen (e.g. when it is a 1/1 Fighter/Thief), but you won't necessarily level both classes at the same time; the progression rate is different. So a 1/1 Fighter/Thief with a 15 CON could conceivably take his thief class next, without taking another fighter class. If you apply a +.5 HP bonus to that roll, you'll always lose it because you round down HP averages. And then when the character takes their next fighter level, they'd lose the bonus then, as well. You would lose it every time, unless you made an effort to always take your two class levels at the exact same time.

e.g. Grog, fighter/thief, attains a new fighter level. he has a CON of 15 and receives a +1 HP Bonus that is divided between the two classes, so +.5HP for each level he takes.

He rolls a 5.
(CON bonus averaged) 5+.5=5.5; 5.5/2=2.75 which is rounded down to 2
(CON bonus added later) 5/2=2; 2+.5=2.5 which is rounded down to 2
The CON bonus has absolutely no impact on the end result; it is therefor no longer a bonus.

He rolls a 6.
(CON bonus averaged) 6+.5=6.5; 6.5/2=3.25 which is rounded down to 3
(CON bonus added later) 6/2=3; 3+.5=3.5 which is rounded down to 3
Again, the CON bonus has absolutely no impact on the end result.

If you add the bonus to each Hit Dice rolled, the results are different in three of the four scenarios:
Grog, fighter/thief, attains a new fighter level. He has a CON of 15 and receives a +1 HP Bonus Per Hit Die. He rolls for his HP...

He rolls a 5.
(CON bonus averaged) 5+1=6; 6/2=3
(CON bonus added later) 5/2=2 (rounded down); 2+1=3

He rolls a 6.
(CON bonus averaged) 6+1=7; 7/2=3
(CON bonus added later) 6/2=3; 3+1=4

With the average NOT divided, he gets an extra Hit Point in the first, second, and fourth examples.


2. It also matters if you add the CON bonus before or after the averaging of the dice roll. I think it should be added after the averaging is done; it is, after all, a bonus. The difference isn't as noticeable with the +1 bonus, but it becomes more evident as the bonus increases.

e.g. Grog, fighter/thief, attains a new fighter level. He has a CON of 15 and receives a +1 HP Bonus Per Hit Die. He rolls for his HP...

He rolls a 5.
(CON bonus averaged) 5+1=6; 6/2=3
(CON bonus added later) 5/2=2 (rounded down); 2+1=3

He rolls a 6.
(CON bonus averaged) 6+1=7; 7/2=3
(CON bonus added later) 6/2=3; 3+1=4

Say Grog had a CON of 16 and received a +2 HP Bonus Per Hit Die. He rolls for his HP...

He rolls a 5.
(CON bonus averaged) 5+2=7; 7/2=3
(CON bonus added later) 5/2=2; 2+2=4

He rolls a 6.
(CON bonus averaged) 6+2=8; 8/2=4
(CON bonus added later) 6/2=3; 3+2=5


If Grog had a CON of 17, I would only apply the +3 HP Bonus Per Hit Die to his Fighter Hit Die rolls. His Thief Hit Die rolls would only get the +2 bonus. So, Grog the fighter/thief has a CON of 17 and takes his next fighter level. He rolls for his HP...

He rolls a 5.
(CON bonus averaged) 5+3=8; 8/2=4
(CON bonus added later) 5/2=2; 2+3=5

He rolls a 6.
(CON bonus averaged) 6+3=9; 9/2=4
(CON bonus added later) 6/2=3; 3+3=6


The difference between the two methods really starts showing with the larger bonuses.
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Re: CON Bonus Interpretation

#2 Post by Xaxyx »

The sticking point revolves around the definition and applicability of a "hit die". First level rangers receive two hit dice, for example, insofar as that they generate two full d8 rolls for hit points. A multi-classed fighter/thief, on the other hand, receives only one hit die, insofar as that each of those hit point rolls is halved.

My understanding, and thus interpretation, of the applicability of the constitution bonus is that it applies to hit dice, not opportunities for increase in hit point totals. Hence, each of a 1st level ranger's hit point rolls enjoys the full constitution bonus, as each roll is for a full and complete hit die. A multi-classer, conversely, is only getting a fraction of a hit die with each class advancement, and thus receives only a fraction of the modifier to hit dice from constitution.

Consider for example the comparison of a first level, single-classed fighter with 16 constitution, and a first level, three-classed fighter/thief/magic-user. By the book, the first level fighter can start with as many as 12 hit points. The three-classed character can have, at most, (12/3=4) + (8/3=2.67) + (6/3=2) = 8.67, or 9 hit points. This seems sensible to me, and in the spirit of the rules, since the character's classes are mixed, rather than pure fighter.

With your method, however, that same three-classed character would start with (10/3+2=5.33) + (6/3+2=4) + (4/3+2=3.33) = 12.67, or 13 hit points -- 14 even, if you round each die individually, and generously. Thus, a character who is only one third fighter has more hit points than a character that is pure fighter. That strikes me as terribly counter-intuitive.

I also disagree with your math example:
He rolls a 5.
(CON bonus averaged) 5+.5=5.5; 5.5/2=2.75 which is rounded down to 2
(CON bonus added later) 5/2=2; 2+.5=2.5 which is rounded down to 2
The CON bonus has absolutely no impact on the end result; it is therefor no longer a bonus.
You're dividing the CON bonus in half twice. The full CON bonus would be added to the roll itself, *then* division would occur. In this case, a 5 is rolled; the con bonus of +1 yields 6; divided in half is 3 hit points. So the con bonus would successfully "bump" this hit point roll up.

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Re: CON Bonus Interpretation

#3 Post by Alethan »

Xaxyx wrote:The sticking point revolves around the definition and applicability of a "hit die". First level rangers receive two hit dice, for example, insofar as that they generate two full d8 rolls for hit points. A multi-classed fighter/thief, on the other hand, receives only one hit die, insofar as that each of those hit point rolls is halved.

My understanding, and thus interpretation, of the applicability of the constitution bonus is that it applies to hit dice, not opportunities for increase in hit point totals. Hence, each of a 1st level ranger's hit point rolls enjoys the full constitution bonus, as each roll is for a full and complete hit die. A multi-classer, conversely, is only getting a fraction of a hit die with each class advancement, and thus receives only a fraction of the modifier to hit dice from constitution.

Consider for example the comparison of a first level, single-classed fighter with 16 constitution, and a first level, three-classed fighter/thief/magic-user. By the book, the first level fighter can start with as many as 12 hit points. The three-classed character can have, at most, (12/3=4) + (8/3=2.67) + (6/3=2) = 8.67, or 9 hit points. This seems sensible to me, and in the spirit of the rules, since the character's classes are mixed, rather than pure fighter.

With your method, however, that same three-classed character would start with (10/3+2=5.33) + (6/3+2=4) + (4/3+2=3.33) = 12.67, or 13 hit points -- 14 even, if you round each die individually, and generously. Thus, a character who is only one third fighter has more hit points than a character that is pure fighter. That strikes me as terribly counter-intuitive.
Hmm... Aside from your different in handling fractions (I've always rounded fractions down and I've always done any rounding prior to adding the different class rolls), I see your point.

Xaxyx wrote: I also disagree with your math example:
He rolls a 5.
(CON bonus averaged) 5+.5=5.5; 5.5/2=2.75 which is rounded down to 2
(CON bonus added later) 5/2=2; 2+.5=2.5 which is rounded down to 2
The CON bonus has absolutely no impact on the end result; it is therefor no longer a bonus.
You're dividing the CON bonus in half twice. The full CON bonus would be added to the roll itself, *then* division would occur. In this case, a 5 is rolled; the con bonus of +1 yields 6; divided in half is 3 hit points. So the con bonus would successfully "bump" this hit point roll up.
The .5 is not the division of the CON bonus in half; it is coming from your statement that the CON bonus is split between classes. There is so elegant way to handle it past chargen. In your example above, you applied the CON bonus to the Fighter Hit Dice roll. But after level one, the character will be taking all of their levels at different times. How do you determine which Hit Dice to apply the bonus to? A Halfling Fighter/Thief applying the bonus to his Fighter rolls would only get it four times. Applying it to their Thief rolls would apply it an unlimited number of times, and more frequently, though the average is less in the short of it.
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Re: CON Bonus Interpretation

#4 Post by Xaxyx »

Alethan wrote:The .5 is not the division of the CON bonus in half; it is coming from your statement that the CON bonus is split between classes. There is so elegant way to handle it past chargen. In your example above, you applied the CON bonus to the Fighter Hit Dice roll. But after level one, the character will be taking all of their levels at different times. How do you determine which Hit Dice to apply the bonus to?
All of them. As the hit die rolls are each divided by class count, so too will the con bonus, each time. Thus, a level 1/2 fighter/thief with a 16 constitution who's super lucky and rolls max on each hit die would have:

Level 1 fighter: (10+2)/2 = 6
Level 1 thief: (6+2)/2 = 4
Level 2 thief: (6+2)/2 = 4

for a total of 14 hit points. Once he gains the fighter level, he'll apply the second, missing "half" of his con bonus on that hit die roll -- by adding +2 to the roll, then dividing the total by two, for an effective net +1 to his hit points.
A Halfling Fighter/Thief applying the bonus to his Fighter rolls would only get it four times. Applying it to their Thief rolls would apply it an unlimited number of times, and more frequently, though the average is less in the short of it.
My understanding is that when a multi-class reaches the level limit of one class but not the other, his hit dice continue to be divided. So, when the halfling acquires enough experience points to be a 5th level thief, he would divide his (d6 hit die plus X con bonus) by two, just like always. The fact that he'll likely never gain another fighter level is irrelevant.

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Re: CON Bonus Interpretation

#5 Post by Alethan »

Why do I always round all HP fractions down? Hmmm... I'd always thought that was the standard. But maybe it was just the house rule of the GM I grew up playing with.

Because...
3. Divide the total by the character's classes (two or three), dropping fractions under 1/2, rounding fractions of 1/2 or greater upwards to the next whole number.
--page 19 of 1e AD&D Players' Handbook
That isn't the case according to the Players' Handbook!

Weird. It's like I've been living a lie for 25 years.
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Re: CON Bonus Interpretation

#6 Post by Alethan »

Xaxyx wrote:
Alethan wrote:The .5 is not the division of the CON bonus in half; it is coming from your statement that the CON bonus is split between classes. There is so elegant way to handle it past chargen. In your example above, you applied the CON bonus to the Fighter Hit Dice roll. But after level one, the character will be taking all of their levels at different times. How do you determine which Hit Dice to apply the bonus to?
All of them. As the hit die rolls are each divided by class count, so too will the con bonus, each time. Thus, a level 1/2 fighter/thief with a 16 constitution who's super lucky and rolls max on each hit die would have:

Level 1 fighter: (10+2)/2 = 6
Level 1 thief: (6+2)/2 = 4
Level 2 thief: (6+2)/2 = 4

for a total of 14 hit points. Once he gains the fighter level, he'll apply the second, missing "half" of his con bonus on that hit die roll -- by adding +2 to the roll, then dividing the total by two, for an effective net +1 to his hit points.
Ah. Confusing. :| I thought you were calling for the CON bonus to be divided between all classes. That is not the case. You're calling for it to be applied to all classes.

Clear now.
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Re: CON Bonus Interpretation

#7 Post by dmw71 »

I have only played a multi-classed character a handful of times in my life, and probably never successfully enough for either class to make it to second level, so this discussion was of definite interest to me since I'm (perhaps foolishly) attempting to play a multi-class character in this campaign.
Xaxyx wrote:
Alethan wrote:How do you determine which Hit Dice to apply the bonus to?
All of them. As the hit die rolls are each divided by class count, so too will the con bonus, each time. Thus, a level 1/2 fighter/thief with a 16 constitution who's super lucky and rolls max on each hit die would have:

Level 1 fighter: (10+2)/2 = 6
Level 1 thief: (6+2)/2 = 4
Level 2 thief: (6+2)/2 = 4

for a total of 14 hit points. Once he gains the fighter level, he'll apply the second, missing "half" of his con bonus on that hit die roll -- by adding +2 to the roll, then dividing the total by two, for an effective net +1 to his hit points.
I think explanation is spot on.


It is also supported by the example provided by Stuart (PapersAndPaychecks), author of the OSRIC rulebook, in the 'OSRIC questions' thread over on Dragonsfoot.
OSRIC rules for multi-class characters are that when each class gains a level, you roll the hit die for that class, divided by the number of classes. This can get complicated.

Worked example #1: A half-elf cleric/ranger with no exceptional constitution bonus.

On creation the player rolls 2d8 for the ranger class hp, and gets 9. He rolls 1d8 for the cleric class and gets 4 hp. He receives (9/2 =) 4.5 hp as a ranger, rounded up to 5, and (4/2 =) 2 hp as a cleric for a total of 7 hp.

3,000 xp later, the character gains a level as a cleric, and is then a level 2/1 cleric/ranger. He rolls 1d8 for the cleric class hp and gets 5. He receives (5/2 =) 2.5 hp as a cleric, rounded down (because halves have been rounded up once already), for 2 hp. The character now has 9 hp in total.

Worked example #2: An elven fighter/magic-user/thief with 16 CON for +2hp/die.

On creation the player rolls 1d10 for the fighter class hp, and gets 6. He adds 2 to this number for his CON, totalling 8, and then divides by 3, for 2.66hp. He rolls 1d4 for the mage class hp, and gets 2. He adds 2 to this number for his CON, totalling 4, and then divides by 3, for 1.33hp. Finally he rolls 1d6 for the thief class hp, and gets 2. He adds 2 to this number for his CON, totalling 4, and then divides by 3, for another 1.33hp. On creation he has 5.33hp, rounded down to 5.

3,750 xp later, the character gains a level as a thief, and is then a level 1/1/2 fighter/magic-user/thief. He rolls 1d6 for the thief class and gets 5. He adds 2 for his CON, making 7, and then divides by 3, for another 2.33hp. He rounds up this time (because the aggregate total fraction exceeds 0.5), and adds a total of 3 hp, for a current total of 8.
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