Alternate OD&D or B/X magic system

Post Reply
Message
Author
Hrafn
Guide
Guide
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 11:16 am

Alternate OD&D or B/X magic system

#1 Post by Hrafn »

I came across a thing, which got me thinking....

Arneson's ideas for Magic in the game

How would this actually work? Just right out the gate, is taking magic anywhere other than the vancian roots we are all familiar with an endeavor worthy of time and effort at all? What do others who may (haha, listen to me! "may"~) have more experience with the particular systems and conventions think?
Kaa, who devours (5th level shaman, ACKS)

User avatar
rredmond
Rider of Rohan
Rider of Rohan
Posts: 8460
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: South Jersey

Re: Alternate OD&D or B/X magic system

#2 Post by rredmond »

Ah Wayne's blog! He took the name if his blog after the OD&D crew (that I played in and he DMed) rolled 1 on initiative like 90% of the time the first session. It was scary for my 1 hp cleric!

Anyway I've modified (and at times hand waved) bits of Vancian magic but have never strayed from using it. Like he said, it's too simple and I don't like my AD&D too crunchy. But I've made relearning spells easier and just made material components (sure you have a live carp in the dungeon) more of a GP cost than a logistical nightmare. Intrigued to see where this topic goes though.
This is a game about killing things and taking their stuff so you can become more powerful in order to kill bigger things and take even better stuff.
Alethan: I'm good with NOT pressing our luck this time.
mjulius: That's how I know I'm home.
Pulpatoon: The whole point of PbP is to take the scheduling pressure off the game. We're just chatty because we're so eager!
Scott308: ...everyone should be reminded of just how wonderful the people they play games with here can be in real life.
Leitz: Quality and quantity wise, I think US is the best I've seen.
Paladin: I can promise terror, glory, and riches...or a quick and brutal death.
Inferno: Come on! That's was Vicar's Head, a completely different doomed village!
Rex: I can move to the wait list to let someone else into the game.

User avatar
Vargr1105
Ranger Knight
Ranger Knight
Posts: 1874
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:05 pm
Location: UNSPEAKABLE POWER!!!

Re: Alternate OD&D or B/X magic system

#3 Post by Vargr1105 »

Perhaps we should define exactly what the "Vancian" magic system is before continuing. It is far more than simple "memorize + fire & forget" magic most people seem to assume it is. And BtB "Vancian" magic systems vary quite a bit between editions whether it be between classical and modern or even among classical ones.

From my standpoint, the system has a sufficient variety of components that you can fiddle with, remove or add to to provide a very different play experience while not "breaking" the game or make it seem bizarrely different.

Hrafn
Guide
Guide
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 11:16 am

Re: Alternate OD&D or B/X magic system

#4 Post by Hrafn »

Vargr1105 wrote:Perhaps we should define exactly what the "Vancian" magic system is before continuing. It is far more than simple "memorize + fire & forget" magic most people seem to assume it is. And BtB "Vancian" magic systems vary quite a bit between editions whether it be between classical and modern or even among classical ones.

From my standpoint, the system has a sufficient variety of components that you can fiddle with, remove or add to to provide a very different play experience while not "breaking" the game or make it seem bizarrely different.
Mm. Obfuscation; we don't need to define Vancian to acknowledge that it is at the root of the system we have today, and while fiddling with current systems can indeed make a good one, I specifically want to look at the possibility of fiddling with the one linked instead. I don't want to pollute the pool by starting anything more definitive yet though, and it's bed time for me – or nap time, hope I won't have to be up again in a few! >_>;

That's a good track though, if you reverse it. Not "what do we have" or "what do you think you know" but "what do you want". I think the answer is unsatisfactory right now; I just want to explore something new.



That's also why I'm found in a dungeon any given delve ;)
Kaa, who devours (5th level shaman, ACKS)

User avatar
AQuebman
Ranger Knight
Ranger Knight
Posts: 1228
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:13 pm
Location: Cincinnati Ohio

Re: Alternate OD&D or B/X magic system

#5 Post by AQuebman »

Hrafn wrote:I came across a thing, which got me thinking....

Arneson's ideas for Magic in the game

How would this actually work? Just right out the gate, is taking magic anywhere other than the vancian roots we are all familiar with an endeavor worthy of time and effort at all? What do others who may (haha, listen to me! "may"~) have more experience with the particular systems and conventions think?
I think it is always worthy to explore different ways of doing things otherwise we wouldn't be as varied as we are currently. I encourage you to try new ways of running it and then take a look back and decide what you like or don't like.

In reality Gygax and co really just experimented a lot with various tropes and idea on top of a miniatures game until they created something they liked.

Hrafn
Guide
Guide
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 11:16 am

Re: Alternate OD&D or B/X magic system

#6 Post by Hrafn »

Alright, I suppose I should put actual work into this, at some point. So, here goes!

The reason behind limiting the number of spells that a Magic User could take down into the Dungeon was simply that many of the ingredients had to be prepared ahead of time, and of course, once used were then powerless.

This is interesting. It is explaining the rationale for spells per day, but doing so while also talking about a system that would have been in place instead of the spells/day system. I will ignore it for now, because the limit is implied to be an end result, not somethign to engineer from.


Since there was always the chance of failure in spells (unless they were practiced) and materials for some spells were limited (determined simply by a die roll) the Magic User did not just go around practicing all the time

Limits.

Spells (and thus, magic-users) are limited by availability of components, chance of failure, constitution, and practice level.


I find the idea of being limited by a die roll one that is board-gamey on it’s face, but that’s a knee jerk reaction. If we move where the die roll occurs, it magically becomes okay! If at the start of the session, the DM says “Okay, Hrafn, you’ve got *dice clatter* Enough components for only two spells” or more likely, “you’ve got components for two fireballs, a charm, but no sleep or web today”, well, that sucks! Especially if I already handed in my “spells memorized” list. But, if we shift it over to say, “Okay, you all arrive in town to restock. WHile browsing, you only find reagents for *dice clatter* two fireballs, a charm and a magic missile” then I’m okay with it. Which makes me immediately think that the dice roll for spell randomization is fine, and any problems with it are people-level problems. Some clarity of expectation would be nice though.


So to progress to a new level, one first learned the spells, and then got to use that spell. There was no automatic progression, rather it was a slow step by step, spell by spell progression.

This, to me, is the most interesting part. It actually plays out that way in a lot of games I’ve seen, too; The magic-user finds a scroll of a level higher than he can cast, he can still learn it, just not use it (except, you know, as a scroll :P ). This means there is a difference between known, unknown, and well-known sells though, and suddenly we have to decide, what is well-known? At what point do we end up with not having to risk failure, not having to consider this a limit?


The answer later on becomes clear; “when you are high enough level to cast that spell”, but that’s not a very clear rubric, is it? You end up either using this as background fluff for the existing daily spel system, or allowing magic users more power by trying higher level spells sooner (admittedly, with risk. Probably catastrophic risk.) and that seems counter to the feel presented by the quotes. Also, this one here;


The Magic User could practice low level spells all the time, cheaply and safely, but his Constitution determined how often he could practice without rest. Thus, the adventurers might want a Magic User to come with them only to find him lying exhausted.

Changes the spells/day expectation. I get the feeling that while higher level spells may be “harder”, the lower ones aren’t easier sufficiently to break them into slots as we currently have it; You could choose, seemingly, from two high level spells or three low level ones, not prep an array (though the numbers seem rather low, the example still stands, aye?), making higher level magic more worthwhile because you get more bang for your limited, budgeted buck.


A magic user also practices his magic, to advance. Not just to get better at magic, I reckon, but also to get better in general. Or, well, no, that doesn’t seem right at all. The article talks pretty strictly about magic use being practiced for itself, but I find decoupling a magic user’s level in hit dice and attack matrix form his spell skill to be undesirable. So I would have to figure out how not only to go from knowing to grokking a spell, but also how that gives you experience, and how that relates to other experience mechanisms...



I think a good place to start, despite my prior statements, is the book. What were the end expectations for a magic user? It looks like, in the end, a Wizard (11th level) needs a total of 300,000 XP and 18 spells known, three of which are fifth level. The chart seems inconsistent at first glance; at some levels, a magic user gains two spells, each at a different level, but some levels they only gain one. The last two levels have also only required 100,000 XP, which means that has already flattened out it’s growth...


From this, we could reverse engineer a little bit, and then take off forward again, extrapolating in a wildly divergent direction! A magic user character begins with one spell known. In order to advance to second level, he must find another spell, and master both of them (a 2nd level M-U has 2 spells known, after all, in the LBB)! The attempts to master the spells should result in experience however, because in theory a magic user could (rather slowly...) advance in level purely by staying home and throwing spells at his wall, and this is precisely what a king’s vizier seems to do, isn’t it? Use kingdom funds to practice, at the cost of being on call for the kingdom?


So the things that really need to be looked at are:

— Determine exactly how one goes about going from practicing a spell, to mastering it.

— determine how this advances the magic user in level.

— Determine how much practice of lower magnitude magicks would be needed to move on to higher magics, if any.




What do y’all think so far?
Kaa, who devours (5th level shaman, ACKS)

User avatar
Alethan
POWAH!
POWAH!
Posts: 14356
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:50 pm
Location: Midwest
Contact:

Re: Alternate OD&D or B/X magic system

#7 Post by Alethan »

Really like what you have so far! Looking forward to watching this progress.
Dragon foot. Bamboo pole. Little mouse. Tiny boy.

User avatar
AQuebman
Ranger Knight
Ranger Knight
Posts: 1228
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:13 pm
Location: Cincinnati Ohio

Re: Alternate OD&D or B/X magic system

#8 Post by AQuebman »

Sounds cool. I'm sure Alethan will make fun of me for this but for some ideas the DCC magic system is rather unique, I have the rules in the character creation thread of my game if your interested.

User avatar
Alethan
POWAH!
POWAH!
Posts: 14356
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:50 pm
Location: Midwest
Contact:

Re: Alternate OD&D or B/X magic system

#9 Post by Alethan »

AQuebman wrote:Sounds cool. I'm sure Alethan will make fun of me for this but for some ideas the DCC magic system is rather unique, I have the rules in the character creation thread of my game if your interested.
If you are interested, I bet we can get your login ID changed to "aDCCman"...

(Hehe... Sorry. I'll check out the DCC rules in just a bit here! ;) )
Dragon foot. Bamboo pole. Little mouse. Tiny boy.

User avatar
Alethan
POWAH!
POWAH!
Posts: 14356
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:50 pm
Location: Midwest
Contact:

Re: Alternate OD&D or B/X magic system

#10 Post by Alethan »

Alethan wrote:
AQuebman wrote:Sounds cool. I'm sure Alethan will make fun of me for this but for some ideas the DCC magic system is rather unique, I have the rules in the character creation thread of my game if your interested.
If you are interested, I bet we can get your login ID changed to "aDCCman"...

(Hehe... Sorry. I'll check out the DCC rules in just a bit here! ;) )
That's a lot to take in, but I like it. Will go back and read again later. Thanks for the info, AQ.
Dragon foot. Bamboo pole. Little mouse. Tiny boy.

Hrafn
Guide
Guide
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 11:16 am

Re: Alternate OD&D or B/X magic system

#11 Post by Hrafn »

AQuebman wrote:Sounds cool. I'm sure Alethan will make fun of me for this but for some ideas the DCC magic system is rather unique, I have the rules in the character creation thread of my game if your interested.
I forgot those were a resource :oops:
Dungeon Crawl Classics, is that one of the free ones? If so I should have it tucked away, unread somewhere (the pitfalls of phone reliance! D= ), but I think a thread would be easier to read through.


My stalling is partially because I can see several ways this plays out; just as it is now, one could make magic use the ONLY way a Mage levels, like how Thieves don't get experience unless they use their skills and get money in later editions, or it could be a separate system from leveling, or it could be supplemental a-la ACKS and it's "4/5 XP from gold, the rest elsewhere" system...
Kaa, who devours (5th level shaman, ACKS)

User avatar
Alethan
POWAH!
POWAH!
Posts: 14356
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:50 pm
Location: Midwest
Contact:

Re: Alternate OD&D or B/X magic system

#12 Post by Alethan »

Hrafn wrote:
AQuebman wrote:Sounds cool. I'm sure Alethan will make fun of me for this but for some ideas the DCC magic system is rather unique, I have the rules in the character creation thread of my game if your interested.
I forgot those were a resource :oops:
Dungeon Crawl Classics, is that one of the free ones? If so I should have it tucked away, unread somewhere (the pitfalls of phone reliance! D= ), but I think a thread would be easier to read through.


My stalling is partially because I can see several ways this plays out; just as it is now, one could make magic use the ONLY way a Mage levels, like how Thieves don't get experience unless they use their skills and get money in later editions, or it could be a separate system from leveling, or it could be supplemental a-la ACKS and it's "4/5 XP from gold, the rest elsewhere" system...
Here is the link right to his post with the magic rules, if you want to read them here...

viewtopic.php?p=50796#p50796
Dragon foot. Bamboo pole. Little mouse. Tiny boy.

Hrafn
Guide
Guide
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 11:16 am

Re: Alternate OD&D or B/X magic system

#13 Post by Hrafn »

That certainly is a lot to take in. I like it!
Some things I notice immediately, though; Corruption is spell-dependent which is perfect, but high-overhead. The magic system doesn't deal with corruption, it just says corruption exists. It's later, individual components each get a corruption blurb, yes? Regardless, I think by pitching the general idea as I know it I've talked a pal into running a game (along with another I forced into the role by buying the Keep on The Borderlands module and shoving into his hands!), so I should be able to fill my free time with game time, which is fun.


On the topic of Arneson's ideas for magic, I am still debating. Double shifts and a meeting today means I'm running on E, unfortunately.
Kaa, who devours (5th level shaman, ACKS)

User avatar
AQuebman
Ranger Knight
Ranger Knight
Posts: 1228
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:13 pm
Location: Cincinnati Ohio

Re: Alternate OD&D or B/X magic system

#14 Post by AQuebman »

Very funny Alethan though I'll take DCC Man as a nickname. I got mentioned on the last spellburn podcast so i'm officially a DCC nerd :D.


DCC isn't free but it's one book that if for nothing else makes an awesome 500 page art book if you don't like the system.

There are general corruption tables, there are corruption tables 3rd party/fans have come up with on the forums and for every spell table they have individual corruption for each spell.

For instance my players ran into a well of corruption that forces a save or they are compelled to jump in. Upon entering the well if they catch the chain they gain a minor corruption (There are major and greater corruptions as well) which is randomly rolled. This is a case where an outside influence caused corruption and thus the general tables are used. Now if a spell caster fumbles a magic missle for instance then there are specific corruptions for that individual spell that usually relate to that spell. Add in a third layer of if a wizard has a patron they can suffer taint's in relation to that patron that usually equates to becoming similar to that deity or their beliefs in some way shape or form.

It's really on the DM how they want to handle it you could make unique corruption effects for your campaign, or give players ways to get rid of them. There's a 3rd party module about a big black worm that eats corruption for example that I found to be interesting. That image I have of the wizard going from normal to ghastly really portrays what the DCC magic system creates over time.

Two of my favorite passages from the book:
"Summoning magical energies is arduous, expensive, and dangerous. No wizard does it lightly. As a result, there are no mundane magics, no spells used simply to light a corridor, for example. Use a torch, fool; it is much safer!"

"Low-level wizards are indeed very powerful, but high-level wizards fear for their souls."

Hrafn
Guide
Guide
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 11:16 am

Re: Alternate OD&D or B/X magic system

#15 Post by Hrafn »

Man. Life is mean, getting all bothersome at the weirdest times... O_O

I did some reading, and some mulling, as I am wont, aQuebman. I came to two conclusions. The first is that it's a fun game, very reminiscent of what I have tried to hack other games into. The second is, that it is not in line with what this Arnesonian idea seems to be about.

Mundane magic is, I believe, at the heart of it. Magic which is hard, expensive, arduous, but basically advanced mystic chemistry requires a certain touch. It needs to be rote, memorizable from rules, and it also needs to be arcane in the sense of only making sense to those who are initiated into it's mysteries. State alchemy from Full Metal Alchemist would be a good comparison, in that it is a science that nevertheless behaves like mystic plot-moving jumbo jumbo since no one outside the characters themselves know many of the rules and capacities involved.

Arnesonian magic would be the art of divining properties of materials and using them for alchemical sorceries, which means those parts must react in a scientifically quantifiable (though still dangerous!) way, which means repeated tests and control conditions must be a possibility.

In short, we need a well-designed balanced system of magical possibility, with consistent outputs, hidden behind superstition and heuristic applications. DCC doesn't have the consistent outputs portion, in that you're liable to get surprise mutations and soul thefts. While the occasional Black Swan like that is nice, it should be a plot point not a generic system hazard.
Kaa, who devours (5th level shaman, ACKS)

User avatar
Rukellian
Rider of Rohan
Rider of Rohan
Posts: 5193
Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 11:13 pm
Location: US East Coast

Re: Alternate OD&D or B/X magic system

#16 Post by Rukellian »

The sort of magical system that is being created here slowly yet steadily in this thread, is something that I would love to see in a future game in this forum. I can definitely get into the idea of focusing on the practice of mundane magics, all in order to gain a better understanding of them, and maybe even unlock some hidden potential within such magics along the way! Each mage in the beginning of a campaign has their own signature spell. It's a low level spell yes, but as he/she uses the spell more frequently, practicing its applications in various scenarios, it would only be natural that the mage would discover hidden functions or traits embedded within the spell they were using all along, things that they could not possibly understand until they were knowledgable enough in its use to recognize it.

This magic system that evolves with the mage would prove to yield plenty of exciting possibilities! And why stop with just evolution of spells through practice? Maybe the mage would experiment with the use of different spell components when casting the same spell. Wall of Fog may require just some split dried peas, but when the mage decides to use, say... the cotton of rare tundra plant, the Wall of Fog would not only effect visibility, but effect hearing as well! Fear, when cast, consumes a white feather; but what if the mage uses a molasses in conjunction with the other spell component. The Fear spell is now not only scaring the target away, but slowing it down as well!

The customization and development of spells that would arise from such a system would prove incredibly fun to play in my honest opinion, and would offer new ways to use the myriad of spells at a Magic User's disposal! Such systems would be costly in gold in the long run to be sure, but like many would say, it would be money well spent. Now I hope this didn't deviate the purpose of this thread too much, I just felt inspired from reading the discussion and had to share my thoughts on the matter!
Even a child that receives one bit of praise has the ability to excel in a single talent, and those who receive regular encouragement can feel confidence, achieve success, and become leading members of society. Because they don’t believe they are worthless, they don’t need to raise a fist and have vengeance against fate or the world at large… ~Inspector Lunge

Post Reply

Return to “House rules”