[Closed for Now] Rewards Discussion

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Keehnelf
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[Closed for Now] Rewards Discussion

#1 Post by Keehnelf »

So, we've had a few expeditions finish up, now, and it seems like a good time for discussion of the rewards structure. Let me lay out my perception of how the expeditions have gone, share with you the assumptions that informed how I've done rewards so far, and then open the discussion up with a couple of pointed questions and a general call for input.

Please note that none of what we're doing here is non-negotiable. I'm sharing my opinions here but we make the game happen together and if we decide to be inflexible on things it's not a good approach for a collaborative entertainment.

Ok, to the expeditions:

Herrin's trip to the forest was a wash. Some xp, some learning about the environment, but little treasure and not much xp. For me the value of a trip like this is in learning, affecting the story, and characterization.

Varas's visit to the tower was a moderate success. The group earned xp, picked up some treasure, found a potentially useful location, learned some things, nobody died. Lots of value here.

Herrin's trip to the ruins: not yet finished so hard to say. If the group survives this encounter it could prove to be a very successful trip, despite the death and dismemberment.

Anwyn and Thisby #1: this was not a very successful trip on a material level, but from my perspective I got hooked on those characters during that somewhat-uneventful trip.

Anwyn and Thisby #2: this was a material failure (we all know what happened), but in my opinion was the most successful expedition so far. Little stories like that one are the reason I play these games as much as big heroic adventures. From my perspective, this thread was its own reward.

ElfQuest: this was a minor failure. We had some major injuries, nothing of use was learned, very little treasure and little xp. On the other hand, we got the beginning of some good characterization that can build over time into awesome stories.

Varas's Endless Voyage: this for me was almost as big a success as the anwyn/Thisby thread. A goodly sum of treasure, despite the lack of dungeon delving, no fatalities, good xp, lots more knowledge of the environment and moving the story in new ways, along with memorable encounters and good character-building.

---

Ok, you can probably get a sense of my biases based on those analyses. Here are my assumptions and ground rules for how I set up rewards:

1. I decided to use LL/BECMI, so I will use their reward structures. That edition rewards finding and recovering treasure, not killing monsters, not awesome characterization. It is highly focused in that way.

2. I want to promote exploration and reward those who take the risks associated with finding new things without adding in the need to tackle it to come away with anything.

3. Role playing is its own reward. I do this for the fun stories. If I hand out xp or other rewards based on role playing, there is always the danger that I will end up rewarding what pleases me, and that is directly opposed to my role in this game as referee. Good role playing is an incentive for other players to team up with you so you can tell cool stories together, and it enhances the world our characters share.

Anyway, these beliefs are what shaped the reward structure currently in place. I want to pose two pointed questions and present one general one:

A. Do you feel like you are adequately rewarded for your accomplishments? Why or why not?

B. are there changes to these foundational assumptions that you would suggest?

Open question: what counts as rewards for you? Why do you play?
Last edited by Keehnelf on Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Please Participate: Rewards Discussion

#2 Post by AleBelly »

A. Do you feel like you are adequately rewarded for your accomplishments? Why or why not?

I think this question has to be answered after more expeditions. The question I would care about is - is the game fair? I say yes to this. One thing I love about sandboxes is the aspect of exploration. You may get half your party killed but find little treasure. Or, you may get lucky and find a single goblin with some serious gold or other valuables. Over time, danger should equate with treasure, but the little anomalies make the game interesting. It also encourages role playing - learning more about the dangerous areas, making smart decisions and using your character's brains to try to figure out where the wealth and xp are. We've all be playing long enough that we have a pretty good idea of the difficulty of the foes we face. If reward always scaled to danger, it would seem too railroad-y to me.

B. are there changes to these foundational assumptions that you would suggest?

No, see below. I think the players just have to feel that the game is fair. It would be fair to assume that most times we will not encounter a pair of red dragons in the first hex outside of Vaul. It would also be fair to assume that if our party marched out to the lizard man city that we wouldn't be coming back.

Open question: what counts as rewards for you? Why do you play?

I play these types of games because I like a) storytelling b) randomness (I'm a math/science geek) c) exploration. I find old-school RPGs provides a great mix of these. I don't really play for rewards.

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Re: Please Participate: Rewards Discussion

#3 Post by GTan_Baq »

A. From what I've seen so far, the rewards seem to fit the challenge level. (unfortunately, none of my characters have lived long enough to enjoy their rewards. :cry: )

B. The mechanics for firing into melee could use some improving. Maybe use the rules for firing at a target in cover as you are trying to hit something mostly covered by a party member, coupled with that "odd/even" idea someone mentioned in a different thread.

A reward for me: To me, the journey is as much a reward as what's lying at the destination. I love good role play also. Characters being creative when they are short handed (i.e. no thief for traps, etc.) is always interesting to me.

just my 2 coppers ;)
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Re: Please Participate: Rewards Discussion

#4 Post by sulldawga »

Looking back at my first expedition, we got rewarded for killing wolves and finding loot, but also for finding the tower and interrogating a goblin. I like all of these things. A game like this can be very rewarding even without a dungeon crawl or a huge battle if the PCs are rewarded for going into the wilderness and finding things for the first time.

So as far as what you're currently doing, more of that, please.

In general, I find that PbP games move much more slowly than regular games do, and thus I like (when I am the DM) to either double XP awards or give more bonus XP. I'd suggest you keep that in mind (and not just because I'm playing an elf who levels up once every six years).

As for rewarding good roleplay, I'm not against it, per se, but it often penalizes the guy who just does his job or the guy who wants to play the taciturn loner. I'd let good roleplay be its own reward.

If you wanted to do something, though... I don't want to add to your burden as DM but I'd find an alternate reward for roleplay that doesn't involve XP. Maybe something like a Luck Point awarded at the end of every adventure for good roleplayers. You can spend a Luck Point to either re-roll a miss or deliver full damage on a hit. Limit of one LP spent per encounter. My F2F group used to do this, and the DM stayed out of it. It was voted upon by the players themselves.

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Re: Please Participate: Rewards Discussion

#5 Post by Keehnelf »

Thanks--I like the idea of the LP or something like that. Also, hadn't considered the doubling of XP due to the pace of the game--I'm a little on the fence about the idea because it might keep the growth closer to what you'd expect F2F but changes the engagement curve with the content a lot (and I'd need to reconsider the challenge levels a bit as a result--right now the baseline of "Level 1 Content" goes out a ways from Vaul with some scattered and isolated higher-level encounters here and there, like the lizard men and the ruins).

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Re: Please Participate: Rewards Discussion

#6 Post by KingOfCowards »

I'll try to keep it short because I've still yet to accomplish a successful expedition, and the more experienced characters are probably your target audience for this discussion.
A. Do you feel like you are adequately rewarded for your accomplishments? Why or why not?
Yes. After a disastrous first adventure, we deserve to be at the negative wealth mark.

B. are there changes to these foundational assumptions that you would suggest?
It might go against the feel of LL/BECMI but I like to reward players who take risks even if it doesn't work out, by awarding xp for damage taken. I like to think you can learn experience even from your failures. Reading sulldawga's idea of luck points, the two ideas may be adaptable.

Open question: what counts as rewards for you? Why do you play?
Like everyone I would suppose, I play to have fun. Rewards don't have to be experience and wealth. One of the most overlooked rewards in this game is the acknowledgment that your actions have real and lasting effects, it adapts to the characters. We're starting small, but already Ghrym will recognize you, even pass on tales about you to other characters. Eventually we'll be building houses, and bigger and better things hopefully. And although she may not get a statue, anyone who read Thisby's expedition is going to remember her. It's nice to know that even the minor characters can make a difference. As others have commented, storytelling and roleplaying are their own rewards. You need the tension and the tragedy to go along with the success and glory.

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Re: Please Participate: Rewards Discussion

#7 Post by Keehnelf »

I'm intrigued by the idea of xp for damage. Would this be a pool distributed evenly among the party at adventure's end, or distributed to each character based on damage received?

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Re: Please Participate: Rewards Discussion

#8 Post by AleBelly »

sulldawga wrote:
In general, I find that PbP games move much more slowly than regular games do, and thus I like (when I am the DM) to either double XP awards or give more bonus XP. I'd suggest you keep that in mind (and not just because I'm playing an elf who levels up once every six years).
I agree that slower pace of play means slower accumulation of XP. I thought one of the reasons the GM gave bonuses for encounters and finding things in the wilderness was to address this.
KingOfCowards wrote: One of the most overlooked rewards in this game is the acknowledgment that your actions have real and lasting effects, it adapts to the characters. We're starting small, but already Ghrym will recognize you, even pass on tales about you to other characters. Eventually we'll be building houses, and bigger and better things hopefully. And although she may not get a statue, anyone who read Thisby's expedition is going to remember her. It's nice to know that even the minor characters can make a difference. As others have commented, storytelling and roleplaying are their own rewards. You need the tension and the tragedy to go along with the success and glory.
That's a really good insight. Another reason sandboxes are great.

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Re: Please Participate: Rewards Discussion

#9 Post by Mister-Kent »

A. Do you feel like you are adequately rewarded for your accomplishments? Why or why not? I've only been in one minorly successful excursion, 1 TPK, and one aborted journey so far, but from everything I've experienced and seen with others, the rewards seem quite fair.

B. Are there changes to these foundational assumptions that you would suggest? Not at the moment--I agree that exploration and discovery is the key component in a game like this.

Open question: what counts as rewards for you? Why do you play? Good interaction with others and good experiences with other players (even when they're not good experiences for my PC!) Good interaction with the environment is super important, and the feeling that we can change the fland, leave our mark on it. I love seeing people planning houses and claiming discovered places for bases. I aspire to things like that as well.
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Re: Please Participate: Rewards Discussion

#10 Post by KingOfCowards »

Keehnelf wrote:I'm intrigued by the idea of xp for damage. Would this be a pool distributed evenly among the party at adventure's end, or distributed to each character based on damage received?
I have only seen it as an individual reward up until now, based on damage received. I am looking all over for the house rules to my last campaign, I think I awarded a flat 20 xp per hit point damage taken, I also had xp given for maiming as well. Just for reference, I just checked out spartakos' pbp game on dragonsfoot and his rules are xp = character level x 5 x hit point (hope you don't mind me sharing your secret house rules spart).

Interesting thought on pool distribution, this would prevent the system from favoring fighters, who usually receive the most damage. But it seems like it would also favor those characters who "hide" from combat, which is something I do not like to reward. I am more imagining something like the Thisby adventure. Sure she tripped the trap and got hurt. That sounds like a learning experience to me, 80 xp worth to be exact. She'll be a better thief for knowing what that kind of trap looks like and seeing it function up close and personal.

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Re: Please Participate: Rewards Discussion

#11 Post by Keehnelf »

I'm still doing some thinking about the do for damage taken idea. I'll probably put a draft of something up for comment in the next couple of days.

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Re: Please Participate: Rewards Discussion

#12 Post by Spartakos »

(pardon the length, I can be a wordy SOB sometimes)
A. Do you feel like you are adequately rewarded for your accomplishments? Why or why not?
Not sure, haven't had any accomplishments yet. :)
From what I've read in other expedition threads, I think the rewards seem quite fair.
To answer 'why', I'd say because in general (from my observations) people who take chances (reasonable chances, not brash and stupid ones) tend toward 1 of 2 outcomes: they die, or they come away from the experience richer in XP and treasure. Both of those strike me as fair outcomes...I feel that daring death to experience the rewards of survival is one of the base concepts of D&D.
An outcome/system that would seem unfair to me is if PCs repeatedly dared the unknown and lived through it by luck, wits, and strength of arms...and got only niggardly rewards. So far, this doesn't seem to be the setup, so I have zero complaints.
B. are there changes to these foundational assumptions that you would suggest?
A few thoughts based on my own feel about the D&D experience.

1.) A lot of DMs especially "older school" ones (not saying you are such, just a category I've experienced) favor promoting exploration and treasure-hunting over killing and RP. I do not particularly object to this concept, with 1 minor caveat.

1a.) I like fighting. While I don't mind if exploration is rewarded over combat, and that in fact not fighting can still be a good option...I don't like it when cowardice (running from a fight) is nearly always the smarter and more rewarding choice. I enjoy what I call 'thrilling heroics'...not mindless killing (especially not killing with no good purpose), but bravery in the face of danger. Fighting an evil foe because it's evil and needs to be stopped; fighting to protect a comrade or NPC, or even a belief/ideal. I don't mind if combat isn't always the best option, but I'd rather it wasn't always the worst option, if that makes sense.
I am not saying that's the situation here (far from it), but I'm speaking general assumptions.

2.) I like King's mentioning of the XP for damage; there is in fact an old set of XP rules called the Asbury System (you can google it), which hands out combat XP entirely by damage dealt and damage received...in this way, you can earn XP for a fight as long as you had some success (dealt damage) or took some knocks but came through alive (took damage). As he mentioned, I do use a variant of this in my own campaign (and no worries about mentioning it). Keep in mind, I set the XP rewards for damage taken so as to keep them on par with many of the other XP rewards I give out (for killing enemies, for casting spells, etc), so I'd look at what other awards you give in this campaign and peg it to that. Based off what I've seen so far, perhaps 1 XP per level per HP taken could work. I like pegging XP awards to level, because generally the standard awards (for defeating monsters and getting treasure) tend to get bigger as you increase in level (because your XP needs are also getting multiplicatively bigger).

2a.) Another XP award to consider is whether PCs get XP for enemies put to flight or overcome through means other than violence. Based on ElfQuest 1, it looks like you do give XP for enemies that flee the field...what about enemies dealt with by negotiation or trickery?...if you convince a group of goblins to surrender or leave, do you get XP as if you'd killed them?

3.) Have you considered a carousing system? I first saw it in use by Jeff Rients, but others have used versions of it. I used it myself in my DF campaign, but I find it's better suited to low-level play (after you've reached mid-level, the reward often does not become worth the risk).
Open question: what counts as rewards for you? Why do you play?
I would divide them as tangible in-game (PC) rewards, and personal (player) rewards.

1.) For PC rewards, the main things are of course loot and XP...which can often be one and the same! Other rewards include fame (particularly if it has tangible benefits, like discounts or favors from NPCs), goods that don't necessarily count as loot (horses, real estate, etc), and station (titles, medals, boons, etc).

2.) For Player rewards, I like developing a character into a personality (particularly if given the opportunity to interact with other PC/NPC personalities); winning (surviving and profiting); and losing (dying) as long as it's fun...dying a good death can be fun. Getting bitten by a rat and dying of typhus or catching dysentary and pooping yourself to death are not good deaths (but which are seriously things people have died of in other D&D campaigns).

Also, some responses to things others have raised:
sulldawga wrote:In general, I find that PbP games move much more slowly than regular games do, and thus I like (when I am the DM) to either double XP awards or give more bonus XP. I'd suggest you keep that in mind (and not just because I'm playing an elf who levels up once every six years).
*shrug* I don't know...games with a liberal "XP for loot" policy can actually level fairly quickly, if you make a decent-sized score. Also, I'd like to mention that this PbP actually moves a LOT faster than most PbPs I've been involved with. For my own PbP game, I try to move action forward every 24-48 hours, and I've been told that's fast. This game moves quicker than that, so far in my experience. I'm actually worried about keeping pace (as I can't update more than 1/day or so).

If you want to speed leveling, I would suggest a specific policy of increasing certain awards, rather than a general "double everything" rule. I think that might make leveling too quick.j
KingofCowards wrote:One of the most overlooked rewards in this game is the acknowledgment that your actions have real and lasting effects, it adapts to the characters.
Agreed, this is a great point.

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Re: Please Participate: Rewards Discussion

#13 Post by Zhym »

I'm still pondering the main questions, but I'd add that not all character would necessarily find reward in fame or station. A cleric, for example, might seek glorification of his god over himself. A magic-user might seek knowledge over renown. A famous thief might find it harder to make a living (oppositely, he might find it easier to get clients).

So I'd suggest maybe having ways to "buy" XP other than through fame for characters that aren't interested in having their names on plaques in the local tavern.

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Re: Please Participate: Rewards Discussion

#14 Post by Scott308 »

Who wouldn't want their name on a plaque in a tavern? Especially if they can use it to get free drinks (granted, I can buy a LOT of drinks for the money spent on the plaque) and their favorite table possibly reserved?

Other ways to "buy" xp might not be a bad idea, however.
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Re: Please Participate: Rewards Discussion

#15 Post by Keehnelf »

Sure, the description was intended as a way of presenting a mechanism.

Tributes to yourself could be donating to expand the local temple, build a relief shelter for invalids, subsidize construction of a house of healing, donations toward the construction or establishment of a wizard's guild, etc.

Basically anything that doesn't just translate into direct benefit for your character, like buying supplies for your own library or workshop, building your property out, etc. the more creative the cause, the better!

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